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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2020, 07:51 
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My now sold Lancair IV-P was actually an extremely nice flying, predictable airplane. Engine put out a solid 350hp. Weight I usually flew around with was around 3000 lbs. Nose lifted at about 60kts and it flew off at 80kts. Over the fence at 95kts, touched down at around 80kts. Fairly rapid acceleration to 160kts and 2000FPM Climb after taking off with a 10 second "death window" if the engine quit where there were no options but crashing straight ahead.

This airplane appears to have much less HP, a smaller wing and will weigh at least 1000lbs more in all similar fuel/payload situation. I have zero canard experience but I've had multiple people describe the controls as "goofy". I can't help but extrapolate some speeds to conclude that this airplane will probably lift off at 100kts and require 125kt over the fence speeds. I'm guessing this engine puts out a leisurely 200hp (until the belt falls off) so I think it will take a minimum of 4000+ feet of runway roll to accelerate to 100kts before it starts a very sad under 500FPM climb. HUGELY long "death window" to gain altitude and accelerate. This is not a viable aircraft.

He's going to fly it once and then get those deposits released to compensate him for his pain and suffering and then I think that's the last we will hear about this project.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2020, 09:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
My now sold Lancair IV-P was actually an extremely nice flying, predictable airplane. Engine put out a solid 350hp. Weight I usually flew around with was around 3000 lbs. Nose lifted at about 60kts and it flew off at 80kts. Over the fence at 95kts, touched down at around 80kts. Fairly rapid acceleration to 160kts and 2000FPM Climb after taking off with a 10 second "death window" if the engine quit where there were no options but crashing straight ahead.

This airplane appears to have much less HP, a smaller wing and will weigh at least 1000lbs more in all similar fuel/payload situation. I have zero canard experience but I've had multiple people describe the controls as "goofy". I can't help but extrapolate some speeds to conclude that this airplane will probably lift off at 100kts and require 125kt over the fence speeds. I'm guessing this engine puts out a leisurely 200hp (until the belt falls off) so I think it will take a minimum of 4000+ feet of runway roll to accelerate to 100kts before it starts a very sad under 500FPM climb. HUGELY long "death window" to gain altitude and accelerate. This is not a viable aircraft.

He's going to fly it once and then get those deposits released to compensate him for his pain and suffering and then I think that's the last we will hear about this project.


Touched down at 80kts???

I thought the Lancair had flaps. Other than the Starship, canard aircraft don't have flaps. That's we takeoff and land faster than normal airplanes. But 80kts in a Lancair is surprising to me. I would have though 60-70 tops.

I have no idea what those people were describing as "goofy". My controls work exactly the same as the 182RG I had before the Velocity. Other than faster takeoff and landing speeds, the only other difference is landing. On the Cessna, I would try and stall the main wing when the main wheels were 1/16" off the ground. ;-)

With the Velocity, the main wing must be on the ground before the canard stalls. Otherwise, you're going to have a bad day. :eek:

I agree with your guess on takeoff and landing speeds for the Raptor. They are going to be staggering.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2020, 09:56 
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He had a IV.

The Lancair IV's have a much more critical wing than any of the other Lancair designs, wing loading similar to an MU-2 or a Lear, which is one of the reasons it's so fast, but it also requires higher speeds for safety.

This is why many of us suspect the IV's had a much higher accident rate and why insurance companies don't like to write them.

Agreed on the design. People would be foolish to relinquish their deposits. The engine design is good, apart from the re-drive (needs a gear box), we need more diesel options for certain, but that weight just isn't going to work with that engine.

I'm curious if the plane can be put on a diet or if it just has to be that over-engineered for structural stability due to design. Still reminds me of the Adams.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2020, 10:17 
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The YouTube fans are commenting things like, “it’s a prototype. Just get it flying and you can shed some weight later.”

Has any airplane in history ever weighed less than its prototype?


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2020, 10:35 
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Username Protected wrote:
The YouTube fans are commenting things like, “it’s a prototype. Just get it flying and you can shed some weight later.”

Has any airplane in history ever weighed less than its prototype?


You might be able to shed 100 lbs, but 1000 lbs is going to take an entirely new design.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2020, 14:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
The YouTube fans are commenting things like, “it’s a prototype. Just get it flying and you can shed some weight later.”

Has any airplane in history ever weighed less than its prototype?


Boeing Dreamliner; Cirrus SR20/SR22, Columbia 350...
Basically, in many composite designs during prototype testing in many cases they found issues that required "patching" in non-structural areas. The patch is always heaver than production. The result, "conforming prototypes" of composite planes have a tendency to lose weight going from prototype to production.
But give the plane a few years, and new options always raise the weight back up.

[Note: this was info from another forum, on composites a while back, but it did make sense]

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2020, 16:29 
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It seems it’s likely to have the ROC of a powered parachute, the people hauling capacity of a Piper Cub and the landing speed of a Lear 24. Hybrid aircraft development IS all the rage these days.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2020, 20:44 
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My gawd, you have hit the nail on the head.

Add:

- Electric motor
- Batteries
- Solar panels
- Wind generator, in case the sun doesn't shine

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 02 May 2020, 19:31 
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Burt Rutan talking about what it was like at Bede. The parallels are eerie, especially the last five minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VokspEo0AE
"The difficult we do immediately. The impossible we advertise."


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 02 May 2020, 22:15 
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So has anyone heard anything the last 2 months? I mean I know there's other things going on in the world, but I'm out at the hangar, as are a lot of other people. Awfully quiet over there.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 May 2020, 00:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
So has anyone heard anything the last 2 months? I mean I know there's other things going on in the world, but I'm out at the hangar, as are a lot of other people. Awfully quiet over there.


I think the lockdown stopped the inspection by Elliot and Justin. I think he thinks he’s ready for the test flight. I have no clue when they are suppose to come out since all this got started.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 May 2020, 08:38 
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Perhaps he’s taken the opportunity for some introspection.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 May 2020, 10:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
So has anyone heard anything the last 2 months? I mean I know there's other things going on in the world, but I'm out at the hangar, as are a lot of other people. Awfully quiet over there.


I think the lockdown stopped the inspection by Elliot and Justin. I think he thinks he’s ready for the test flight. I have no clue when they are suppose to come out since all this got started.

GA came up on all their lockdowns but perhaps Elliot and Justin aren't interested in traveling.

My I/A is traveling here to sign Laz off next weekend then we're flying Laz back to her hangar for annual and other work (Aspen install, etc). She's been working in her hangar despite the lock-downs this entire time, they just aren't letting customers in and it's just her and her husband working together anyway.

Be interesting to see what they come up with.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 May 2020, 12:03 
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Couldn't help but think of this...might be next on the hitlist. :rofl:

[youtube]https://youtu.be/VHOvoO-6nWQ[/youtube]

JATO (actually RATO is more correct) has been done before with GA aircraft and very successfully, I might add. See the pics below. Yes, that’s an Ercoupe and, yes, it had RATO rockets. They worked quite well. Here is a report on the test.
Attachment:
FED5C763-ED0E-43C8-A56A-BF34289DC48D.png

Attachment:
F66837FD-D6F9-4487-9213-C1DCEC267E3F.jpeg


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 May 2020, 12:11 
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Uncontrollable rocket acceleration plus potential for flutter due to the sloppy control system? :bugeye:

I wouldn’t want to be the test pilot for that combo.

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