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21 Apr 2021, 21:16 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2021, 18:35 
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40 hours is what he needs before the FAA will let him fly cross country to relocate the plane outside his approved test area. It should in no way be related to the amount of testing done before offering a kit for sale to the general public.

I would hope that once he “goes into production” that the first “production” aircraft, which will presumably have some MAJOR redesign efforts baked in, will get significantly more than 40 hours worth of testing for both the airframe and power plant. I can’t imagine his company would get any form of liability insurance without testing, but who knows what Peter is planning.


In addition to clocking the minimum 40 hrs he is still required to test it through its planned operating envelope and endorse the records that it performed satisfactory.

(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and

(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.

I think we all know if he ever gets it there it will take more than 40 hrs to get out of the phase one area. I guess if he sticks with the same type engine he can change it is many times as he needs.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2021, 18:40 
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People keep talking about Phase I, 40 hours, etc., which refers to initial testing of E-AB. How is the Raptor certificated?


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2021, 18:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
People keep talking about Phase I, 40 hours, etc., which refers to initial testing of E-AB. How is the Raptor certificated?



Assuming experimental/amateur built with non certified engine/prop combination.

Maybe something different if he is planning to offer it as an FAA Evaluated kit. If he is in it as a business venture from the beginning he would have a problem with 8130-12 form requirement of stating that he built it entirely for his own educational and entertainment purposes. Amateur built also has limits on commercial assistance.


Last edited on 15 Feb 2021, 18:58, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2021, 18:50 
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Username Protected wrote:
...Peter is planning.

There’s an oxymoron if I ever heard one.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2021, 19:13 
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Does the new/used engine require a time re-set of the 40 hours? Or can he get it signed off since it may be same model of engine?

Good question- also a pretty frequent misunderstanding people have about experimental-amateur built aircraft.

The logic behind that 40 hours of Phase 1 testing (for non certificated engine and/or prop, it's only 25 hours if using an engine and prop combination that are certificated in an existing aircraft) is like an extended shakedown cruise to work out whatever bugs need to get worked out. It's not endurance testing per se though, you're supposed to be testing out everything about the airframe-powerplant combination—and everything—full battery of tests to get performance, stability, c.g range, fly the airplane to every corner of the envelope.

The logic of being restricted to some defined test area during Phase 1 is for some reasonable safety for people on the ground (i.e. adequate airspace over an unpopulated area) and the pilot in the airplane (mostly a suitable airport). If you make a major change to the airplane then you're supposed to repeat Phase 1, starting over at 0. A new engine of the same type is a repair though, it's not even a minor change.

Phase 2 begins when Phase 1 is complete, which is no sooner than those hours are done (nothing says it can't be later if the testing takes longer), and the builder has made an entry as such in the logbook. Phase 2 sounds a bit misleading, what it means is the rest of the service life of the airplane.

It's like a lot of things in general aviation, we have enough freedom to try new things and enough freedom to hurt ourselves.


So, in a sense it's already signed off. Hope that makes sense.



EAA has all kinds of information on all of this stuff, cookbook style how-to guides for navigating the paperwork as well as friendly magazine articles. It's a lot of information to take in but it's easy for anyone to find. They also have some really great safety programs to help people of all different types of skills and skill levels with practically every aspect of putting a new airplane into the air... a lot of amazing help really is there for anyone who wants it. It's not some organization that exists in a vacuum either, a lot of the membership is accomplished in all kinds of different aviation careers, pilots, mechanics, engineers. Experts and wannabes are equally welcome.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2021, 19:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
People keep talking about Phase I, 40 hours, etc., which refers to initial testing of E-AB. How is the Raptor certificated?

Ahhh, (whoops), very good question!

https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquir ... mberResult

It's certificated as Experimental Research and Development. (All this time I assumed E-AB, not E-R&D.)

I guess we'd have to see the fine print on the certificate as far as test restrictions and so on.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2021, 19:28 
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I think the 40 hours (if applicable) also comes with the requirement that problems in that time are all sorted out satisfactorily.

Basically, the 40 hours is a test because there is no reasonable airworthiness test that can be applied otherwise. You can go fly if you can make it work well for 40 hours, a crude but workable reliability test.

I think Peter has failed the test. Multiple times.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2021, 19:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
I think the 40 hours (if applicable) also comes with the requirement that problems in that time are all sorted out satisfactorily.

Basically, the 40 hours is a test because there is no reasonable airworthiness test that can be applied otherwise. You can go fly if you can make it work well for 40 hours, a crude but workable reliability test.

I think Peter has failed the test. Multiple times.

Do the hours have to be concurrent and uninterrupted? If something breaks and you fix it, or make a system change to correct it (like, say, enabling the electronic thermostat in the ECU), does that reset the clock? Apparently not. If the airframe makes it through the forty hours with a few additions and exchanges, it sounds like it’s good to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2021, 21:57 
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Do the hours have to be concurrent and uninterrupted? If something breaks and you fix it, or make a system change to correct it (like, say, enabling the electronic thermostat in the ECU), does that reset the clock? Apparently not. If the airframe makes it through the forty hours with a few additions and exchanges, it sounds like it’s good to go.


I won't speak for the USA / FAA but in Canada the requirement for removal of initial flight authorization restrictions is that the test hours must be "defect-free".


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2021, 00:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
Do the hours have to be concurrent and uninterrupted? If something breaks and you fix it, or make a system change to correct it (like, say, enabling the electronic thermostat in the ECU), does that reset the clock? Apparently not. If the airframe makes it through the forty hours with a few additions and exchanges, it sounds like it’s good to go.


I won't speak for the USA / FAA but in Canada the requirement for removal of initial flight authorization restrictions is that the test hours must be "defect-free".


Well I bet he is glad he did not choose to build it in Canada then... LOL.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2021, 15:32 
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While we wait for Peter to put up the next video, here's one that discusses the problem with the twin turbo design that he's using. It is a bit techy, but it goes into detail about pressure ratios and the correct sizing of the turbochargers (hint: you don't use two of the same size), and why what he's doing isn't right. Tune in for more:

http://youtu.be/IiGEoQpcjos


The sad part is that it doesn't sound like it would take a lot to fix it.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2021, 18:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
While we wait for Peter to put up the next video, here's one that discusses the problem with the twin turbo design that he's using. It is a bit techy, but it goes into detail about pressure ratios and the correct sizing of the turbochargers (hint: you don't use two of the same size), and why what he's doing isn't right. Tune in for more:

http://youtu.be/IiGEoQpcjos


The sad part is that it doesn't sound like it would take a lot to fix it.


Can’t wait to see Peter’s rebuttal video. Guaranteed entertainment.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2021, 18:38 
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Peter will likely ignore it.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 16 Mar 2021, 23:16 
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He’s already heard and ignored the advice. He had a perfect opportunity to change the turbo arrangement while the engine was being swapped, but he left it alone. He doesn’t care.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 17 Mar 2021, 01:47 
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Ross Farnham is the right guy to give that lecture. Not sure the the Raptor guy is taking note any time soon.

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