25 Apr 2024, 11:19 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 12 Dec 2019, 10:55 |
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Joined: 05/06/14 Posts: 6560 Post Likes: +7403 Company: The French Tradition Location: KCRQ - Carlsbad - KTOA
Aircraft: 89 A36 TN, 78 Tiger
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Username Protected wrote: Of course, this is BeechTalk. Everyone knows juuuuuusssssttttt a liiiiiiiitttttllle bit more than anyone else. My last home built smashed into a pile of 2x4’s and plywood after I flew it off of the garage.
Give the guy some credit for doing what he’s doing. He’s not building from a quick build kit at a factory assist shop like you did. Or didn’t, if you’ve never built a plane. It’s pretty bad that a lot of you are waiting for him or a test pilot to get killed just so you can say, “I told you so.” I understand your point of view. And he should be congratulated for taking on a project of that scale. Also, I think that he is very smart, no question about it. The problem for me is when you start making claims about what you are going to achieve and you take money from people... That is the issue for me. His claims are ridiculous. So he is either a dreamer, or a swindler... But those claims are just setting him up for failure. The project is great, as far as I am concerned. But: He should have developed those concepts one at the time. The air frame needs to be proven first. This is a plane and It needs to fly. Then I would have developed the engine. Lots of potential issues there. Great concept though. Then I would have gone for the pressurization, Then for ice So the weight would have increased in stages, and would have been more manageable. But now, the ways it stands, he is going for the entire thing at the time.... The potentials of failures are astronomical... And not being to learn from failures, since he will not be able to see what went wrong when that thing comes crashing down in the pattern. Big companies, with very smart people take a long time and a lot of failures to develop new concepts.
_________________ Bonanza 89 A36 Turbo Norm Grumman Tiger 78
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 12 Dec 2019, 14:37 |
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Joined: 11/30/17 Posts: 1289 Post Likes: +1460 Location: KARR
Aircraft: J3, Twin Commander
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Username Protected wrote: The project is great, as far as I am concerned. But: He should have developed those concepts one at the time. The air frame needs to be proven first. This is a plane and It needs to fly. Then I would have developed the engine. Lots of potential issues there. Great concept though. Then I would have gone for the pressurization, Then for ice So the weight would have increased in stages, and would have been more manageable.
But now, the ways it stands, he is going for the entire thing at the time.... The potentials of failures are astronomical... And not being to learn from failures, since he will not be able to see what went wrong when that thing comes crashing down in the pattern.
Big companies, with very smart people take a long time and a lot of failures to develop new concepts. What is that saying about studying history? Feynman on the shuttle disaster - "The usual way that such engines are designed (for military or civilian aircraft) may be called the component system, or bottom-up design. First it is necessary to thoroughly understand the properties and limitations of the materials to be used (for turbine blades, for example), and tests are begun in experimental rigs to determine those. With this knowledge larger component parts (such as bearings) are designed and tested individually. As deficiencies and design errors are noted they are corrected and verified with further testing. Since one tests only parts at a time these tests and modifications are not overly expensive. Finally one works up to the final design of the entire engine, to the necessary specifications. There is a good chance, by this time that the engine will generally succeed, or that any failures are easily isolated and analyzed because the failure modes, limitations of materials, etc., are so well understood. There is a very good chance that the modifications to the engine to get around the final difficulties are not very hard to make, for most of the serious problems have already been discovered and dealt with in the earlier, less expensive, stages of the process. The Space Shuttle Main Engine was handled in a different manner, top down, we might say. The engine was designed and put together all at once with relatively little detailed preliminary study of the material and components. Then when troubles are found in the bearings, turbine blades, coolant pipes, etc., it is more expensive and difficult to discover the causes and make changes. For example, cracks have been found in the turbine blades of the high pressure oxygen turbopump. Are they caused by flaws in the material, the effect of the oxygen atmosphere on the properties of the material, the thermal stresses of startup or shutdown, the vibration and stresses of steady running, or mainly at some resonance at certain speeds, etc.? How long can we run from crack initiation to crack failure, and how does this depend on power level? Using the completed engine as a test bed to resolve such questions is extremely expensive. One does not wish to lose an entire engine in order to find out where and how failure occurs. Yet, an accurate knowledge of this information is essential to acquire a confidence in the engine reliability in use. Without detailed understanding, confidence can not be attained.
A further disadvantage of the top-down method is that, if an understanding of a fault is obtained, a simple fix, such as a new shape for the turbine housing, may be impossible to implement without a redesign of the entire engine."
From - https://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/mi ... ndix-F.txt
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 12 Dec 2019, 17:49 |
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Joined: 11/30/17 Posts: 1289 Post Likes: +1460 Location: KARR
Aircraft: J3, Twin Commander
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Username Protected wrote: Are you comparing the R&D power of the Nasa with this dude? No. Bottom up or component design, vs top down design. Essentially what you have described. Even with NASA’s R&D power top down doesn’t work.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 13 Dec 2019, 10:16 |
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Joined: 05/06/14 Posts: 6560 Post Likes: +7403 Company: The French Tradition Location: KCRQ - Carlsbad - KTOA
Aircraft: 89 A36 TN, 78 Tiger
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Username Protected wrote: Are you comparing the R&D power of the Nasa with this dude? No. Bottom up or component design, vs top down design. Essentially what you have described. Even with NASA’s R&D power top down doesn’t work.
Very true.
_________________ Bonanza 89 A36 Turbo Norm Grumman Tiger 78
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 16 Dec 2019, 23:41 |
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Joined: 12/10/07 Posts: 30761 Post Likes: +10760 Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
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Username Protected wrote: No. Bottom up or component design, vs top down design. Essentially what you have described.
Even with NASA’s R&D power top down doesn’t work. Very true. I use top down design successfully quite often but not by itself. If you're designing a rocket there's no point starting with the component designs until you have a pretty good idea what components will be required (and just as important, what the performance will be required from those required components).
IOW, neither bottom up nor top down concepts work without the other. This among other things is why the good engineers and designers works the problems from both ends (top and bottom) either alternately or concurrently.
_________________ -lance
It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 13:37 |
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Joined: 07/06/14 Posts: 3014 Post Likes: +1996 Location: MA
Aircraft: Cessna 340A
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Username Protected wrote: Finally, the fuel header and extra intercooler.
When the pump runs to pump fuel though the intercooler, it pumps from the header tank back to the main tanks. And it pumps out faster than it fills up. Couple that with max fuel flow for takeoff and climb out, say 25 gph, it’s gonna drain that tank in no time. Is the point of that intercooler to cool intake air, or to heat the fuel?
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 20:33 |
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Joined: 07/06/14 Posts: 3014 Post Likes: +1996 Location: MA
Aircraft: Cessna 340A
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Username Protected wrote: Well it can do both If the point is to warm fuel, then you turn off the pump when the fuel is warm enough. If the point is to cool intake air, there is a limited amount of cooling you can do. I haven't done the math on the amount of heat we're talking about to cool compressed turbo air, but I know some passive air/air intercoolers are quite effective.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 21:07 |
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Joined: 06/17/14 Posts: 5023 Post Likes: +1954 Location: KJYO
Aircraft: C-182, GA-7
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The test pilot has on a helmet (smart) but is the pressurized O2 mask REALLY necessary for “some low-speed taxi tests”?? When I am done laughing I will return to our regularly scheduled thread. ...can’t wait to see what he does with the ailerons to stiffen them up.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 21:20 |
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Joined: 07/06/14 Posts: 3014 Post Likes: +1996 Location: MA
Aircraft: Cessna 340A
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Username Protected wrote: Well it can do both If the point is to warm fuel, then you turn off the pump when the fuel is warm enough. If the point is to cool intake air, there is a limited amount of cooling you can do. I haven't done the math on the amount of heat we're talking about to cool compressed turbo air, but I know some passive air/air intercoolers are quite effective.
So I watched the video... he's trying to cool down the intake air for a short term improvement. Said this intercooler gives him "5 more seconds of full power operation" and that this is good... It certainly is not to warm the fuel, since it is limited to pulling just half the fuel in the header tank, not the full tanks.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 22:03 |
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Joined: 11/06/10 Posts: 11898 Post Likes: +2854 Company: Looking Location: Outside Boston, or some hotel somewhere
Aircraft: None
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Username Protected wrote: The test pilot has on a helmet (smart) but is the pressurized O2 mask REALLY necessary for “some low-speed taxi tests”?? When I am done laughing I will return to our regularly scheduled thread. ...can’t wait to see what he does with the ailerons to stiffen them up. With the premise I know nothing. I have met two "experimental test pilots". Both who did it on a regular basis. One wore a chute, and full O2 mask and everything on every test. The other wore jeans and a t-shirt. So who knows what is going through the mind of this pilot? Tim
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