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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2017, 20:08 
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My issue is not the experimental aspect.
But the numbers just do not compute.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 08:24 
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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 08:43 
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Username Protected wrote:
- There are way too many variables on an aircraft for an armchair quarterback to make claims of how the airframe will peform simply by discssuing possible drag and power - unknowns by themselves. If the engine performs and the airframe is slick, which it appears to be, then it be a screamer.


I support your overall message and anti-critic sway generally, but the above CAN be armchair quarterbacked, as the physics of flight haven't changed.

They're claiming 230kts at 25K. We know that an airframe with a typical c/d and weight will require power of a certain amount -- then we can figure out where the problems are with their math, if any.

The more amateurish the math and claims put forward by a company, and the less seriously they seem to take precision (or sometimes, even just being within an order of magnitude), the more doubt it casts on the overall project and its attention to detail, something I would cherish in a new design.

$0.02


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 09:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
Jim Bede lives!



Except that this guy isn't a P.T. Barnum Huckster.

Sure, his claims may be unattainable, but as I've posted previously, even if he achieves 60% to 80% of what he's shooting for, it will be a great improvement over most other offerings out there in the same AMU category.

The fact that he is pretty diligent about posting update videos every week, and is quite transparent about the mistakes they've made along the way, leads me to believe that he truly is trying to bring a new aircraft to market. Not vapor ware or a paper airplane.

But, as with all things, talk is cheap, it's what you do that counts.



dino

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 09:31 
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Doing research on other planes, I came across the following engine:
http://www.purepowerm.com/en/jpe-04/

You will find that the Raptor is one of the planes listed down below.
What is also fascinating is a few comments I have found on the engine which state it is based on a Volvo block. No idea if true.
If this is true, this could be where he gets some of his numbers. Problem is he is only looking at the may power, not the sustained power.

My concern about the plane is that if the power/efficiency/drag numbers are that far off, what about the rest. Structural strength? CG/CL?....

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 09:44 
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Username Protected wrote:

Sure, his claims may be unattainable, but as I've posted previously, even if he achieves 60% to 80% of what he's shooting for, it will be a great improvement over most other offerings out there in the same AMU category.


"60% of what I'm shooting for" being laudable is sort of why I am skeptical of E/AB as a general rule.

"60% of the intended spar strength" is not a "win" in my book, for instance -- or maybe "60% of the intended safe flight envelope" if you're an insurer of Lancair products is similarly unimpressive.

60% of 230kts is a Cessna Skylane, by the way. :D There, saved you a deposit. :cheers:


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 13:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
I support your overall message and anti-critic sway generally, but the above CAN be armchair quarterbacked, as the physics of flight haven't changed.

They're claiming 230kts at 25K. We know that an airframe with a typical c/d and weight will require power of a certain amount -- then we can figure out where the problems are with their math, if any.

The more amateurish the math and claims put forward by a company, and the less seriously they seem to take precision (or sometimes, even just being within an order of magnitude), the more doubt it casts on the overall project and its attention to detail, something I would cherish in a new design.

$0.02


The problem is that we don't know the actual power, or the actual drag, or the actual weight - yet you're saying that's it not achievable. So, it is Monday-morning quarterbacking. I understand you're substantially skeptical, but then just say that.

Based on the drag provided with the power proposed on the Raptor website, the performance offered is achievable. The crux of the matter is what the engine will actually produce and what the drag characteristics of the airframe actually are - and none of that will be known until the thing actually is either wind tunnel tested, or it flies and performance is actually known. As for the engine, the latest postings by the company show that the engine will be dyno tested soon, and that will be informative. Until then, it's all just postulation.

BTW, by definition, they are amateurs; it's their first go at it. Technically, so is anyone who builds an experimental airplane and registers it as Experimental - Amateur Build, which they are doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 19:41 
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Username Protected wrote:
There have been several BeechTalkers, including myself, that have mentioned this aircraft in various other threads.

Thought we'd start a thread specifically for this plane.

Although there have been comments of this being nothing more than vaporware, it seems to be progressing nicely with video updates weekly, sometimes twice weekly.


So.....

Here's some pics and some links.


http://raptor-aircraft.com/

The blog...

https://medium.com/@RaptorAircraft

The first video...

[youtube]https://youtu.be/hLY59_jImLc[/youtube]


And finally, some pic's...



Doesn't the Velocity already offer this idea?


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 19:55 
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Username Protected wrote:

Doesn't the Velocity already offer this idea?


Jeff Kerlo, of the Velocity XL team, is now part of the Raptor team.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RaptorAircraft ... d_atlanta/


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 23:08 
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I'm deposit holder 170ish. Randomly saw Peter Muller standing around eating lunch at Oshkosh and invited him to sit down. We spoke for a little while. His goal is to have the prototype in the air by the end of the year. Not sure if he'll actually make that from watching the videos but they are obviously making progress.

As for is it achievable. I'll repeat, the TSIO550 Velocity XL, which is a pretty similar air frame, is making 250+ KTAS at 25,000. That's not pie in the sky. I think there are 4 or 5 of those flying today turning in that kind of performance. They just aren't pressurized.

So even if he as to tweak the engine or drop back to a dinosaur to push it at 17 gph, if he gets something flying at that speed, pressurized with chute and glass, for twice that price I'll buy one.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 23:44 
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I'm way down the list at 608. I figure worst case is I just get my deposit minus the fee back. Best case, you have guys trying to buy your spot if it makes the numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2017, 07:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
- There are way too many variables on an aircraft for an armchair quarterback to make claims of how the airframe will peform simply by discssuing possible drag and power - unknowns by themselves. If the engine performs and the airframe is slick, which it appears to be, then it be a screamer.


I support your overall message and anti-critic sway generally, but the above CAN be armchair quarterbacked, as the physics of flight haven't changed.

They're claiming 230kts at 25K. We know that an airframe with a typical c/d and weight will require power of a certain amount -- then we can figure out where the problems are with their math, if any.

The more amateurish the math and claims put forward by a company, and the less seriously they seem to take precision (or sometimes, even just being within an order of magnitude), the more doubt it casts on the overall project and its attention to detail, something I would cherish in a new design.

$0.02


This type of propaganda hype is universal. If they had legitimate mathematical computations to back up these claims, they wouldn't be asking for deposits from the "peanut galleries". All we have to do now is spread some STP on the wings, pour Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel, rub the exhaust with some "Fantastic" soot remover, fill the crankcase with Camguard, put a copper bracelet around the pitot tube, miracle hair restorer on the tires and it would break 500 knots in cruise on 3 gallons per hour, AND could be produced for less than$20,000 a copy.

Were he alive today, P.T. Barnum would be laughing his ass off. :lol: :lol:

Jgreen
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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2017, 08:01 
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Could we say JGG is skeptical


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2017, 08:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
This type of propaganda hype is universal. If they had legitimate mathematical computations to back up these claims, they wouldn't be asking for deposits from the "peanut galleries".


Are you saying they should not be accepting (small, refundable) deposits as a way to gauge interest and establish delivery priority?

Or, if they had "more legitimate math" then they would have less justification for taking escrowed deposits than they currently do?

How does holding a couple bucks in an escrow account have any relation to PT Barnum?


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2017, 08:10 
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:popcorn:

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