25 Apr 2024, 02:35 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: CJ winglet certification obtained Posted: 23 Jan 2016, 23:36 |
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Joined: 03/04/13 Posts: 2593 Post Likes: +1261 Location: Little Rock, Ar
Aircraft: A36 C560 C551 C550S
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The test bed aircraft is N86LA. Sn 0012. I operated that airplane for 5 yrs before selling it to the current owner who leased it to the Tamarack folks. Good little airplane.
Robert
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Post subject: Re: CJ winglet certification obtained Posted: 24 Jan 2016, 00:33 |
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Joined: 07/11/11 Posts: 2252 Post Likes: +2215 Location: Queretaro / Woodlands
Aircraft: C525 BE40 D1K Waco
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There is a second airplane (there may be more) owned by a fellow CJP member that agreed to install a set to do some conformance testing (N300BV). This is what he had to say before the installation: I have over 10,000 hours, 4500 in citations, including 2600 in my CJ1, plus ten years flying fighters in the Air Force and Air National Guard.
The performance I experienced during my flight in their test aircraft in which I flew with Nick out of Sand Point ( 2131' elevation ) with full fuel and the computer equipment they used for testing, we climbed straight to FL400 in 20 min. I normally fly 2-3 hours legs in my CJ1 at FL370-410 and I have not been able to get to FL400 in less than 45 min. Another thing that I noticed, although I did not time it, the aircraft seemed to accelerate up to cruise speed much quicker. While I agree with your thoughts about testing, Tamarack has been spending their time and money on certification rather than flights for marketing purposes. If this was not as it is represented, Cessna would never had bought into it. I have visited their facilities twice, and I can assure you they are a first class engineering house. Normally when you add winglets to an aircraft, it requires strengthening the wing which adds weight degrading some of the performance the winglets offer. The Tamarack system does not require that , which allows for the increased performance they experience.
His tail number is blocked on Flight Aware so I don't know how much flying he's been doing, but I would imagine after Tamarack gets through the certification process, we'll start getting more information on the performance gains, the most enticing of which, for me, are the GW increase (both for MTOW and ZFW) as well as the hot and high performance.
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Post subject: Re: CJ winglet certification obtained Posted: 06 Feb 2016, 01:46 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Attachment: winglet-ff.jpeg Hopefully everyone can tell this chart is bogus. Mike C.
Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: CJ winglet certification obtained Posted: 06 Feb 2016, 06:21 |
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Joined: 07/11/11 Posts: 2252 Post Likes: +2215 Location: Queretaro / Woodlands
Aircraft: C525 BE40 D1K Waco
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Username Protected wrote: Attachment: winglet-ff.jpeg Hopefully everyone can tell this chart is bogus. Mike C. Bogus??? Exactly what is bogus about this? The data for this plot comes from 4 averaged data points from the table below. Tamaracks winglet data starts at 1.02 hours while the first data point for the CJ starts at about 0.6 hours average flight time. Perhaps, for the lower average block times (at and below 1 hour flight time), more data is needed to draw definite conclusions - 3 averaged data points may not be enough. However, there is a trend that is worth noting. Now, if you want to argue there is no performance improvement and it is all just marketing BS, I would be interested in understanding your reasoning. Or perhaps your claim is that this data is fabricated? http://www.tamarackaero.com/flight-log-chart.html
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Post subject: Re: CJ winglet certification obtained Posted: 06 Feb 2016, 11:01 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8456 Post Likes: +8429 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Alex,
Those graphs certainly show impressive performance gains. Have you analyzed the payback time period for the installation investment?
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
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Post subject: Re: CJ winglet certification obtained Posted: 06 Feb 2016, 12:06 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Bogus??? Exactly what is bogus about this? How does the engine know it should magically change its fuel flow because the wing shape is different? Please, do try and explain this. Every engine maker needs to know. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: CJ winglet certification obtained Posted: 06 Feb 2016, 12:19 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Now about this chart: Attachment: endurance.jpeg So, given the chart specifies you are using MCT, maximum continuous thrust, then the engine power levers are put in the same place for all flights. The winglets don't add fuel capacity. Yet, at the same power setting, the plane flies about 45 minutes longer if you have the winglets, leaving the same amount of reserve at the end. Those of you who believe the chart is honest and accurate should not admit that in public as that would say more about you than the winglets. Mike C.
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_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: CJ winglet certification obtained Posted: 06 Feb 2016, 12:29 |
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Joined: 04/06/14 Posts: 1038 Post Likes: +606 Location: Everywhere
Aircraft: TP/Jet
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Username Protected wrote: Now about this chart: Attachment: endurance.jpeg So, given the chart specifies you are using MCT, maximum continuous thrust, then the engine power levers are put in the same place for all flights. The winglets don't add fuel capacity. Yet, at the same power setting, the plane flies about 45 minutes longer if you have the winglets, leaving the same amount of reserve at the end. Those of you who believe the chart is honest and accurate should not admit that in public as that would say more about you than the winglets. Mike C. Do you think mike that maybe the premise was the endurance is longer because of increased climb performance to altitude, which in turn reduces time at cruise fuel burn?
_________________ tREX terSteeg, aka PEE-TAH, aka :deadhorse:, Mr 007
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Post subject: Re: CJ winglet certification obtained Posted: 06 Feb 2016, 12:31 |
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Joined: 04/06/14 Posts: 1038 Post Likes: +606 Location: Everywhere
Aircraft: TP/Jet
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Username Protected wrote: If the CJ gets higher earlier, it burns less fuel and stays in the air longer. Seems simple to me, but I didn't go to MIT... I went to public school. The shame.
_________________ tREX terSteeg, aka PEE-TAH, aka :deadhorse:, Mr 007
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Post subject: Re: CJ winglet certification obtained Posted: 06 Feb 2016, 13:28 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Do you think mike that maybe the premise was the endurance is longer because of increased climb performance to altitude, which in turn reduces time at cruise fuel burn? Do you think getting to altitude, say, 5 minutes faster would net 50 minutes more cruise time? The answer is no. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: CJ winglet certification obtained Posted: 06 Feb 2016, 14:00 |
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Joined: 07/11/11 Posts: 2252 Post Likes: +2215 Location: Queretaro / Woodlands
Aircraft: C525 BE40 D1K Waco
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Username Protected wrote: Those of you who believe the chart is honest and accurate should not admit that in public as that would say more about you than the winglets.
Mike C. Making arguments in a rude and abrasive manner or by insulting other people, a common pattern for you, does not make them right or disqualify Tamarack's testing data. Lacking social skills and civility really detracts from any valid argument you might be trying to make. Your insight and input are welcome - your belligerence is not. Let's see here - the CJ data is not up for discussion - I hope. Those are pretty close and accurate numbers. The Tamarack numbers are based on actual flight data of more than 4 years of testing and which were part of the system's certification data. A fellow CJP has installed a set on an experimental basis and I have kept in contact with him - he is experiencing the same performance gain reflected in this perhaps less than technically accurate manner. As far as the physics, the drag reduction in addition to the improved climb performance (not 5 minutes - more like 15) is what makes the difference. Tamarack has also been forthcoming in providing testing data to potential customers, and from what I have seen, and if they did not deliberately fabricate the numbers, this chart is fairly accurate if not presented in a technically correct way. The data table from where these charts came is there for you to discuss. I look forward to reading your comments - not your insults.
Last edited on 06 Feb 2016, 14:09, edited 1 time in total.
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