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16 Nov 2018, 05:29 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup



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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 21:51 
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A "-10 conversion"; known as the -10T, is a converted -5 on a 690. A "factory -10" is a true TPE331-10 making higher horsepower on the 695 airframe.

There's very little difference between the -10T (converted -5) and the "true" -10. The conversion is an entirely new hot section, new combustor, new fuel nozzles, new turbines, new stators, new everything after the compressor. The factory -10 uses the same compressor as the -5. So basically, the -10T and -10 are the same engine as far as the gas flow goes. The gear boxes are extremely similar, too. The only real difference is the -10T uses a temp card EGT limit (no SRL) and the -10 has an SRL computer. The SRL can allow the -10 to make a tiny bit more power at any given altitude and temperature because it measures more variables in setting the red line than the -10T temp card takes into consideration.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 22:45 
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Mike, you're back! All it took was a TPE-331 question...


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2017, 21:36 
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Very technical. W :bow:

What is an SRL?

Rgs

Patrick


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2017, 21:57 
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Username Protected wrote:
Very technical. W :bow:

What is an SRL?

Rgs

Patrick



"Single Red Line". It is a computed number set by a bunch of variables, run through a computer, and displayed a simple to understand number to measure against a limit (650 C in the -10 installation in the Merlin I had). The raw data from the probes are fed through a compensating computer (and averaged or something IIRC) to produce the number you see on the dial (which may or may not be al that close to the actual heat reading).

I remember my shop foreman asking "how fast do you want to go ? - I'll turn the computer reading down so the temp shows less!!"


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2017, 00:29 
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Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
SRL is analog Fadec light, but about 30 years before the term was coined.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 04 Sep 2017, 08:21 
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So Patrick, what's the latest? Is it fixed? Any leads on the thieves? Is there any way to eventually find the radio with Garmin's help?

Bruce, still waiting on completion for the fix.
No leads on the villains.
My understanding is that the radios are on a list now of stolen parts and won't be upgradeable, possibly won't be able to do database updates, not entirely sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2017, 16:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
So Patrick, what's the latest? Is it fixed? Any leads on the thieves? Is there any way to eventually find the radio with Garmin's help?

Bruce, still waiting on completion for the fix.
No leads on the villains.
My understanding is that the radios are on a list now of stolen parts and won't be upgradeable, possibly won't be able to do database updates, not entirely sure.

Shooting for 6-8 more weeks as target for completion, now.
Just hit 5 years on the props, so they are going in now, as well, despite being nowhere near the hours limit and looking pristine.
I've had a busy summer with some things happening, which put this sort of incident into perspective (it's just a plane, no one was injured, insurance is covering most of it...). So I'm generally pretty zen regarding this.
Except, occasional instances, like this morning... when I was with my two year old son (whose world consists of our family, our dog, cars, tractors, trucks and airplanes) and we were looking up at the sky from the boules pitch of the hilltop village of Mougins at a Citation jet shooting the graceful loop of the VPT-A at 2000 feet for runway 17 at Cannes Mandelieu. I'm not sure which one of us was more excited about the airplane :D
[edit: that plane flying the approach I know and would enjoy flying but I'm now grounded, really made me a bit annoyed. My son said he wants to fly in daddy's plane... we are simpatico]

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 06 Sep 2017, 23:39 
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You might want to check into this re: your props.

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=142913&p=1995206#p1995206

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2017, 14:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
You might want to check into this re: your props.

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=142913&p=1995206#p1995206

My understanding is that Hartzell (I have 3 blade Q-tip props) or an owner of the Turbo Commander type certificate had overhaul written into the STC for the props or into the Type Certificate or something... (I researched this and I'm not entirely remembering exactly)
So for my case it seems not to be an option to inspect or defer.
I'm sure someone else is more knowledgeable than I am but I'm pretty sure I don't have the option which is linked to and may exist for certain turboprops.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2017, 11:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
My understanding is that Hartzell (I have 3 blade Q-tip props) or an owner of the Turbo Commander type certificate had overhaul written into the STC for the props or into the Type Certificate or something... (I researched this and I'm not entirely remembering exactly)

You need to find out exactly. I would be surprised if you have mandated overhauls.

An inspection program can NEVER mandate an overhaul. Inspection is checking for airworthiness, overhaul is adding new life. They are very different things.

In some cases, parts are life limited. For example, turbine wheels. I've not heard of a prop being life limited, but perhaps that is possible. Life limited usually comes from the certification basis, not tacked on by STC or other post certification change.

In my inspection program for my MU2, the program says to follow the Hartzell service letter giving prop inspection and overhaul intervals. A few have misinterpreted that this means the overhauls are mandatory. That is not true, the inspection program cannot mandate overhauls and thus the overhaul requirements in the Hartzell service letter do NOT apply. The FAA letter was all about the fact that inspection programs were giving overhaul guidance and you can IGNORE that since that cannot be part of an inspection program.

The Hartzell service letter says my prop overhaul is 3000 hours or 5 years. I just did my overhauls, electively, after 10 years and that was perfectly legal. They had about 1500 hours. My overhauls cost just under $6K per prop (which included ~$1400 of deicer boots and harness), no major parts replaced, no corrosion.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 04 Oct 2017, 18:11 
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I can't help but stay impressed that after 32 years of not even being in production, these old planes still give brand new ones a run for the money in both economy and speed.

Here's a recent trip I did in my friends 980. We went from Camarillo to Oakland, CA. As you can see in video, we cruise climb at 2500fpm at 130kts and reach FL280 about 18min after takeoff (and that was with level off's from ATC, so interrupted). At FL280, you can see in video a fuel flow of 415-420pph, or 63gal/hr and doing 297kts TAS.

In a PC12, you'd be looking at 450pph or 67gal/hr doing 267kts. More fuel, slower.

On the TBM 700, it's a little bit better than the Turbo Commander, but not by much. 55gal/hr or 370pph would yield max cruise at around same speed, but then you're down to well below max range.

An 850 does a little bit better with the extra 150hp, but the fuel flow goes up as well. In the list, you can see that FF at high speed is more than in the Commander at 446pph, but it does go 15kts faster, so it's still going to be a little bit better on fuel economy.

http://www.caijets.com/tbm/cost.htm

http://youtu.be/IpV9rf9GMU8


The second engine runs for free. :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 05 Oct 2017, 00:26 
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Username Protected wrote:
I can't help but stay impressed that after 32 years of not even being in production, these old planes still give brand new ones a run for the money in both economy and speed.

Here's a recent trip I did in my friends 980. We went from Camarillo to Oakland, CA. As you can see in video, we cruise climb at 2500fpm at 130kts and reach FL280 about 18min after takeoff (and that was with level off's from ATC, so interrupted). At FL280, you can see in video a fuel flow of 415-420pph, or 63gal/hr and doing 297kts TAS.

In a PC12, you'd be looking at 450pph or 67gal/hr doing 267kts. More fuel, slower.

On the TBM 700, it's a little bit better than the Turbo Commander, but not by much. 55gal/hr or 370pph would yield max cruise at around same speed, but then you're down to well below max range.

An 850 does a little bit better with the extra 150hp, but the fuel flow goes up as well. In the list, you can see that FF at high speed is more than in the Commander at 446pph, but it does go 15kts faster, so it's still going to be a little bit better on fuel economy.

http://www.caijets.com/tbm/cost.htm

http://youtu.be/IpV9rf9GMU8


The second engine runs for free. :thumbup:


:thumbup: :thumbup: Steve's plane is awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 05 Oct 2017, 01:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
In a PC12, you'd be looking at 450pph or 67gal/hr doing 267kts. More fuel, slower.

The second engine runs for free. :thumbup:


Your numbers on the PC12 at FL280 are incorrect. Normally at that altitude we're burning about 345-365lbs, so about 15 gph less than your WAG..........we're also truing out at about 270-275 depending on ISA temps..........

All that being said, if Turbo Commander's were still being made I'd be flying one today..........I had a flight with Bruce in a 980, incredible engine......cut off one engine, simply a non event...........way better than any other twin turbine IMHO........no close second.......

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 05 Oct 2017, 10:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
In a PC12, you'd be looking at 450pph or 67gal/hr doing 267kts. More fuel, slower.

The second engine runs for free. :thumbup:


Your numbers on the PC12 at FL280 are incorrect. Normally at that altitude we're burning about 345-365lbs, so about 15 gph less than your WAG..........we're also truing out at about 270-275 depending on ISA temps..........

All that being said, if Turbo Commander's were still being made I'd be flying one today..........I had a flight with Bruce in a 980, incredible engine......cut off one engine, simply a non event...........way better than any other twin turbine IMHO........no close second.......


Penman, my friend! But the PC12 will be at max cruise to be able to do 270kts, so I would gently suggest your fuel flow numbers will be higher there. Your FF numbers given seem to be for more long range cruise, no?

Respectfully. ;) :thumbup:
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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 05 Oct 2017, 11:18 
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Username Protected wrote:
Penman, my friend! But the PC12 will be at max cruise to be able to do 270kts, so I would gently suggest your fuel flow numbers will be higher there. Your FF numbers given seem to be for more long range cruise, no?

Respectfully. ;) :thumbup:


My numbers are for max cruise. At FL280 that's where they be.

SSSSHHHH, don't tell no one, it will push the price of used PC12's through the roof :D

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