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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 05 Apr 2017, 15:12 
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Joined: 08/09/11
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Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
Username Protected wrote:
What is the preferred autopilot on a Commander?

Collins AP-106, King KFC-300, Collins APS-65, Bendix M-4D, or S-Tec (Meggitt) 2100?

Which one would you avoid? Any no longer maintainable? Any not work with a G600?


Edward,

The M4 anything is the only one on my avoid list, everyone knows that's for MU2's :bud: :bud:


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 06 Apr 2017, 00:23 
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Joined: 11/09/13
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Location: KCMA
Aircraft: Aero Commander 980
Username Protected wrote:
What is the preferred autopilot on a Commander?

Collins AP-106, King KFC-300, Collins APS-65, Bendix M-4D, or S-Tec (Meggitt) 2100?

Which one would you avoid? Any no longer maintainable? Any not work with a G600?


My Commander has the Collins 106 with alt pre select which includes VS. Its Ok but not as precise as the KFC 300 I had on my 421.

They are close and I would take which ever one had the most features, particularly alt pre select. If they both had alt preselect and VS I would choose the KFC 300.

The stec 2100 has all the features and integrates with the G600 and is the preferred AP. I doubt it is any smoother than the other older analog models but it just integrates well with the new avionics and has lots of capability.

The fact that you can install a new technology AP into a Commander is really nice. Many older turbo props are stuck with very old AP technology. No one wants to bother with an STC for just a few hundred airframes. Particularly if the AP is going to cost 80k to install. It just does not make sense on the cheaper airframes.

I think Bruce is right about the M-4 although I have never flown one. It is dated and a bit more rare than the others. I understand parts might be a problem and some operators buy stock piles when they find them for sale.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2017, 16:04 
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Joined: 02/05/15
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Location: KSLC
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There is much discussion on BT about the efficiency of the MU2 regarding ops cost. Does the Turbo Commander 690 series compete at all in that area? I know the 690s have the spar inspection (unless modified) and the 5 year gear. Does this put it closer to King Air costs regarding maintenance? I'm looking for input in areas other than TPE331 vs. PT6A.


Last edited on 08 Apr 2017, 23:32, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2017, 16:21 
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Joined: 01/16/12
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Location: London
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I've never owned a King Air but all of my pre-purchase research and evaluation led me to believe that owning a King Air and operating it for low time per year (as a private owner tends to, relative to commercially "worked" aircraft) would be substantially more money than a Commander. I've now seen two annuals and 14 months of ownership and operating costs are consistent with my budgeting. The engine efficiency and differential TBO is huge but I think the overall operating costs are lower, based on my limited direct knowledge on the Commander side and based on the large amoung of information out there on the KA side.
Edit: I'm working on pulling my operating expenses all together to get caught up with exact figures.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2017, 23:35 
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What would be good numbers to budget for spar inspection and gear inspection?


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2017, 05:23 
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Username Protected wrote:
What would be good numbers to budget for spar inspection and gear inspection?

I have the permanent spar fix and the previous owner just had the gear done before my purchase, so my numbers would be second hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2017, 10:35 
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Patrick ,

Would you be willing to share your ownership costs of your Commander ?

Thanks,
Edward


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2017, 12:24 
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I haven't pulled all my numbers together and have a more limited length of ownership than nearly every other operator... but I think the Eagle Creek figures are reasonable, in total. I haven't had any surprises, after the initial adjustment of expectations regarding prices for most everything which accompanies replacing pistons for turbines.
Some figures are too high: I pay half their insurance figure and half their fuel figure per gallon. Some figures are too low: I've paid double their hangar costs. It looks like their parts and maintenance figure is fair, although year to year it might vary, it probably averages out to something like their number on a per hour basis. Their hours flown, 200/y is more than I've been able to do.
http://www.eagle-creek.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Commander-Package-2013.pdf
Edit: The only cost that bothers me is some of the landing fees and FBO fees, for a bigger plane. I pay higher prices than the smaller jets on some things, due to the aircraft size and weight 10,250 lbs which rounds up to 4.5 metric tons. Especially in Europe, it seems some airports really gouge. Does my stopping by and buying a bunch of fuel from you and taking up a bit of space on your otherwise empty ramp really mean I should pay $300 for a bit of parking... this seems to particularly true at struggling second tier airports in the UK (with a long runway and shiny FBO that is anything but busy). It isn't bad at the third tier of airports, which the jets can't get into, where they are reasonably happy for you to pop in and buy a bunch of fuel and do not gouge you for the privilege of buying fuel from them...


Last edited on 09 Apr 2017, 12:44, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2017, 12:36 
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Joined: 11/09/13
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Location: KCMA
Aircraft: Aero Commander 980
Username Protected wrote:
There is much discussion on BT about the efficiency of the MU2 regarding ops cost. Does the Turbo Commander 690 series compete at all in that area? I know the 690s have the spar inspection (unless modified) and the 5 year gear. Does this put it closer to King Air costs regarding maintenance? I'm looking for input in areas other than TPE331 vs. PT6A.


So much of it depends on the actual airplane you buy. More so than if it's a MU-2 or a Commander.

That's why you need someone with experience in that make and model to hold your hand through the purchase of one of these airplanes.

I did a lot of homework on both airplanes but it was the phone calls with knowledgeable operators, mechanic, brokers that really got me up to speed.

I think this is particularly true when you are inspecting individual airplanes. There is no way for you understand all the intricacies that should be accounted for when making an offer.

In reality most people who own a MU-2 have never owned a Commander and the same goes for Commander owners. I only know what it has cost to operate my airplane. That might not translate to another Commander or MU-2.


I had considered a MU-2 when I was looking but decided on a Commander for a variety of reason. Mostly based on the operation of the airplane.
A couple of my main requirements were good OEI performance and ease of operation. Other requirements were common to both airplanes, speed and cost.

My Commander is a 980 it is a little different than a 690 but similar enough to get a feel for costs.

My last 150hr was done at Naples jet center and was 13k. I have another 150hr coming due and I expect it to be similar in cost.

Gear inspection at one of the top shops for the runs 15k.

All airplanes need to have money spent on the gear. My 421 needed the gear rigging to be check at every annual. Not just a gear swing like many shops do. It was important on twin Cessnas with the electric gear, but it was not a required inspection. The Commanders gear is a required inspections that is really probably overboard for a low time time user. It is a very in depth inspection.

I don't know anything about the MU-2 gear except it is electric and relatively slow to retract. They do not have a required inspection but I would expect the good shops inspect the gear and the rigging.

The King Airs are great airplanes.

The pluses are just how many of them there are out there. Lots of people can work on them. The downside are the speed and FF. If you compare the maintenance cost on a per mile and not on a per hour basis, it becomes apparent that the king air will cost more.

With that said I have flown King Airs but have never owned one.

The phase inspections on a king air are different than the periodic inspections on the Commander.

The periodic is like a annual done at 150hrs.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2017, 16:05 
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Wow! Those ownership costs sure seem reasonable for about 200hrs +/-. Great performance!

Thanks,

Edward


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 28 Apr 2017, 17:57 
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I've seen several references to training in this thread but not much about where to do it. What's available for training besides SimCom?


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2017, 04:21 
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There are a number of good in aircraft training programs and instructors. I'm only aware of Simcom for simulator training. I did my initial with Bob Huskey who operates under Larry York's insurance approved program. Worth keeping in mind that the Sim may not match up well with one's particular plane equipment given the range of avionics upgrades of the fleet. Different autopilots, engines (-5 or -10), panels...


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2017, 12:11 
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Location: KCMA
Aircraft: Aero Commander 980
It seems like most companies that are in that niche of supporting turbo prop training have Commander training.

I have done both training in my plane and simcom. You get something different from each, but the real factor that determines the quality is the instructor.

Next time I might call around to the Commander service centers and see who they use. They have 135 operations that use Commanders, so they have instructors that give the 135 rides.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 01 May 2017, 10:09 
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Beyond angry and gutted...
Over the weekend someone broke into my aircraft and attempted to remove all the avionics, destroyed the panel, taking out one of the G600s and the GTNs and cutting most of the wiring. It's a total mess with lots and lots of damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Turbo Commander
PostPosted: 01 May 2017, 10:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
Beyond angry and gutted...
Over the weekend someone broke into my aircraft and attempted to remove all the avionics, destroyed the panel, taking out one of the G600s and the GTNs and cutting most of the wiring. It's a total mess with lots and lots of damage.


Sorry to read that Patrick.


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