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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 14:21 
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A friend of mine operates a super SII. They have done 2200 nm in it and do 2000 nm consistently. When heavy and warm it starts the cruise at 360 kts and speeds up towards 400 kts as fuel burns off. This is for a long range trip, not a max speed altitude. It can be operated SP in the US but not internationally which is why I stopped looking at them. Recently one was available for 1.3 which is a good deal, but I am looking for faster/further.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 15:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
1650nm going west against the winds, without stopping and having a healthy IFR reserve of an hour? That's a 1900-2000nm plane with zero wind, or a 2500nm plane with real world winds.

Let me make it easy for you, Mike. There is no such thing SP. Maybe a Merlin IIIB, or if you splash out for a SJ30. Those are your only two SP options.


I pretty much agree with that except for the part about the SJ30. That is not a single pilot jet. In fact, in the real world they are currently 3-crew aircraft. There is one based at my airport and it never leaves without pilot, co-pilot, and an engineer to handle the problems it will encounter. It's a great jet if you read the marketing literature though!

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 17:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
A friend of mine operates a super SII. ..... It can be operated SP in the US but not internationally which is why I stopped looking at them.


Are there any jets that may be operated SP out of the US?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 17:23 
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Username Protected wrote:
A friend of mine operates a super SII. ..... It can be operated SP in the US but not internationally which is why I stopped looking at them.


Are there any jets that may be operated SP out of the US?


Citation 500 & 550 are certified for 2 pilots and the FAA issues a single pilot wavier. That wavier is only valid in the US.

Aircraft that are certified for single pilot by their OEM are valid worldwide - Citation 510 & 525, Phenom 100 & 300, Premier, Eclipse, etc.
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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 17:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
A friend of mine operates a super SII. ..... It can be operated SP in the US but not internationally which is why I stopped looking at them.


Are there any jets that may be operated SP out of the US?


Plenty, as long as the AFM states min crew 1

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 20:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
Plenty, as long as the AFM states min crew 1

There are plenty of things the AFM says that may not apply to the present airplane, for example an STC that raises gross weight or some other limitation stated in the AFM.

So given the plane is US registered, the pilot is US licensed, and the bilateral agreements say that should be allowed, why can't one operate under a SPW outside the US?

What if we came up with an STC to make the plane single pilot? The AFM supplement then puts the minimum crew requirement into the AFM.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 20:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
A friend of mine operates a super SII. They have done 2200 nm in it and do 2000 nm consistently. When heavy and warm it starts the cruise at 360 kts and speeds up towards 400 kts as fuel burns off. This is for a long range trip, not a max speed altitude.

Erwin, can you find out from your friend how operates the plane to get the maximum range? I'd be curious on his fuel usage and speed model. For example, first hour fuel and distance, second hour, etc. I can then use his model to plan some trips in various winds and see how well it works.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 20:29 
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Username Protected wrote:
A friend of mine operates a super SII. They have done 2200 nm in it and do 2000 nm consistently. When heavy and warm it starts the cruise at 360 kts and speeds up towards 400 kts as fuel burns off. This is for a long range trip, not a max speed altitude. It can be operated SP in the US but not internationally which is why I stopped looking at them. Recently one was available for 1.3 which is a good deal, but I am looking for faster/further.


That's a great deal!


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 21:29 
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So given the plane is US registered, the pilot is US licensed, and the bilateral agreements say that should be allowed, why can't one operate under a SPW outside the US?


If the rules in the other country are more restrictive, you are bound by those rules while there. Especially aircraft. For example flying in Canada you are bound to follow the local oxygen/altitude rules, circuit procedures and even alternate minima, as abhorrent as that seems. Is it done? :shrug:
Driving, even speed limits!

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 22:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
Plenty, as long as the AFM states min crew 1

There are plenty of things the AFM says that may not apply to the present airplane, for example an STC that raises gross weight or some other limitation stated in the AFM.

So given the plane is US registered, the pilot is US licensed, and the bilateral agreements say that should be allowed, why can't one operate under a SPW outside the US?

What if we came up with an STC to make the plane single pilot? The AFM supplement then puts the minimum crew requirement into the AFM.

Mike C.


When you apply for overflight permits the aviation authority will see that the aircraft type is listed as two crew and you need to supply two crew paperwork. Sometimes you might get lucky and be able to win the arguement, but not always and it is no way to make plans. I have been through this with med certs, the US rules are different than ICAO and the non US world basically goes by ICAO. One more thing, in a two crew aircraft internationally make sure your copilot has a type rating or at the very least a SIC type rating otherwise you get to argue that point as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 22:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
If the rules in the other country are more restrictive, you are bound by those rules while there.

That's not true for aircraft and pilot certification. A US pilot flying a US registered aircraft doesn't have to meet EU airworthiness standards or EU pilot licensing.

Quote:
For example flying in Canada you are bound to follow the local oxygen/altitude rules, circuit procedures and even alternate minima, as abhorrent as that seems.

Those are operating rules, how one flies in the airspace, which one must follow, not certification rules, for who is allowed to fly.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 23:02 
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The excerpt below is from NBAA and for informational purposes only.


Medical Certification Issues For International Flights

July 24, 2008
Do I need a First Class Medical to Fly Internationally?

Many States have different requirements from those of the U.S. when it comes to medical certificates. According to ICAO Annex 1 – Personnel Licensing, holders of commercial pilot licenses and airline transport licenses are required to hold a class 1 medical. These requirements are not based on the type of operation, private or commercial, but on the certificate held by the pilot making the flight. Although the FAA allows commercial pilots to hold second class medicals, the ICAO naming structure for the various classes of medicals does not fit with that of the U.S. Under the ICAO definition, a second class medical applies only to holders of private pilot licenses.

As a result, when conducting international flights, it is recommended that pilots (including those serving as Second-In-Command) carry a current FAA first class medical certificate. For pilots under age 40 at the time of examination, FAA first class medical certificates expire at the end of the last day of the 12th month following the examination date shown on the certificate. For pilots over age 40 at the time of examination, FAA first class medical certificates expire at the end of the last day of the 6th month following examination. For pilots over 40, inspectors may well conclude that the FAA first class medical is invalid if the date of the medical examination was more than six months prior to the date when the ramp inspection is made. This means, that any time after 6 months (to the day), an FAA first class Medical Certificate may be interpreted as no longer meeting ICAO Standards and Recommended Practices (SARPS).

While the standards for FAA first and second class medicals are similar to those of an ICAO first class medical assessment, the differing classification structure and standards have historically caused confusion. In most States, outside of the U.S. and Canada, it is easier to simply carry a valid first class medical rather than trying to explain to a foreign inspector that a FAA second class medical equals an ICAO class 1 medical. Should your argument be less than convincing you may have to either get a current first class from an FAA Certified AME or bring in a pilot with current first class medical to remove your aircraft.
Excerpts from ICAO Annex 1- Personnel Licensing

“1.2.5.2 Except as provided in 1.2.5.2.1, 1.2.5.2.2, 1.2.5.2.3, 1.2.5.2.4 and 1.2.5.2.5, a Medical Assessment issued in accordance with 1.2.4.5 and 1.2.4.6 shall be valid from the date of the medical examination for a period not greater than:

60 months for the private pilot licence — aeroplane;
12 months for the commercial pilot licence — aeroplane;
12 months for the airline transport pilot licence — aeroplane;”

It also indicates the following in a note:

“Note 2 — When calculated in accordance with 1.2.5.2 and its sub-paragraphs, the period of validity will, for the last month counted, include the day that has the same calendar number as the date of the medical examination or, if that month has no day with that number, the last day of that month.”

In ICAO Annex 1, 2.4.1.6, the medical requirement for a commercial pilot is prescribed. It states:

“2.4.1.6 Medical fitness

The applicant shall hold a current Class 1 Medical Assessment.”

In ICAO Annex 1, 2.5.1.6, the medical requirement for an airline transport pilot is prescribed. It states:

“2.5.1.6 Medical fitness

The applicant shall hold a current Class 1 Medical Assessment.”

“6.1.1 Classes of Medical Assessment

Three classes of Medical Assessment shall be established as follows:

a) Class 1 Medical Assessment; applies to applicants for, and holders of:
— commercial pilot licences — aeroplane and helicopter
— airline transport pilot licences — aeroplane and helicopter
— flight navigator licences
— flight engineer licences

b) Class 2 Medical Assessment; applies to applicants for, and holders of:
— private pilot licences — aeroplane and helicopter
— glider pilot licences
— free balloon pilot licences

c) Class 3 Medical Assessment; applies to applicants for, and holders of:
— air traffic controller licences.”


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 23:35 
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Even with that a 747 or 777 will blow right past a CJ4 in cruise.


In all fairness, not many airplanes will pass a 747.... In fact, in RVSM airspace, nothing will (legally).


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2015, 05:51 
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Citation 500 & 550 are certified for 2 pilots and the FAA issues a single pilot wavier. That wavier is only valid in the US.


This is not true at all. I'm getting really tired of people spreading this misinformation.

I've flown (legally) a part 25 certified 2 pilot aircraft on the single pilot exemption in 27 countries. Literally around the world. YES, it is true that some people who don't know their head from their a** will question you. I've also had this problem when walking to my jet in jeans or a business suit- the authorities will scream at me, "you must wait for your flight crew to take you to the aircraft!" They simply don't understand that a guy can own a jet and fly it himself. If you aren't wearing the pilot uniform with a company ID badge, they will give you a hard time. The same is sometimes true when (legally) flying a jet on a single pilot exemption. They may not understand. In practice, however, it's never been a problem for me. That's my experience for over 1,000 international hours flying single pilot (mostly in Europe). Feel free to take the advice of the guys who have never flown out of the country but are happy to give you their 'expert' advice.

Saying that France or the UK 'wont recognize' the exemption is absolutely ridiculous. They recognize our N-registered aircraft, our FAA issues licenses, AND our STCs (which is technically what the exemption is- there are just other elements to it).

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2015, 08:19 
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Apparantly, there are single pilot waivers and single pilot exemptions. Not the same thing and the exemption appears to have more value.

I have found the FAA letter extending the authorization of the SPE program to 2017 and sent a copy to ICAO, requesting comment as to international validity of the exemption from thier perspective.

If one had a validating letter from ICAO it would be a great help when applying for permits, which is where the hassles will be found.

The exemption itself is not valid for 135 operations so I can see that a good deal of confusion arrises from that fact when pilots discuss the validity of it.


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