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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2015, 15:30 
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Not having SP in Canada/Mexico is a downside, but there aren't that many SP-capable Citations making oceanic crossings regularly anyway...


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 00:20 
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This exemption would only be valid within the U.S. A. It only applies to U.S licences (because the training/checking is by FAA approved training organization and personnel).

US licenses are valid in other countries by the bilateral agreements.

Are you sure you asked the RIGHT question?

Can a US pilot operate a US registered aircraft single pilot if the FAA says that is legal?

I wonder if the ICAO interpreted your question as asking if a US pilot with a SPE could operate single pilot non US registered equipment. I believe that would be no.

I don't know the nationality of your license, so perhaps that is a factor here.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 03:05 
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Edwin-

You DO NOT need to follow the ORIGINAL AFM in the case of STCs and approved supplements. (The exemption on my Citation is actually an STC to the aircraft, which just happens to require special training as part of it.)

Now, obviously, the FAA can not approve an STC or issue an exemption for aircraft with are not N-registered and/or if you are flying on a foreign license. Perhaps that is where your confusion is.

Let me be very clear once again: It's completely legal as a U.S. pilot, to fly a U.S. registered Citation to a foreign country.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 04:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
This exemption would only be valid within the U.S. A. It only applies to U.S licences (because the training/checking is by FAA approved training organization and personnel).

US licenses are valid in other countries by the bilateral agreements.

Are you sure you asked the RIGHT question?

Can a US pilot operate a US registered aircraft single pilot if the FAA says that is legal?

I wonder if the ICAO interpreted your question as asking if a US pilot with a SPE could operate single pilot non US registered equipment. I believe that would be no.

I don't know the nationality of your license, so perhaps that is a factor here.

Mike C.


Original question

There exists a single pilot exemption for a series of Cessna Citation aircraft which are certified as two crew aircraft. The exemption details apply to private part 91 operations and the details of the exemption are attached to this email.

There is much confusion among private operators as to the validity of this FAA exemption outside of the US.

Can you tell me, from the ICAO perspective, would this exemption be valid and allow single pilot private operations outside of the US in the mentioned series of Citation Jets which are otherwise certified as two crew aircraft by in the AFM?


More specific follow up question

Would the exemption be valid for U.S. registered aircraft flown by U.S. licensed pilots outside of the US?


I have an FAA license.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 05:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
Edwin-

You DO NOT need to follow the ORIGINAL AFM in the case of STCs and approved supplements. (The exemption on my Citation is actually an STC to the aircraft, which just happens to require special training as part of it.)

Now, obviously, the FAA can not approve an STC or issue an exemption for aircraft with are not N-registered and/or if you are flying on a foreign license. Perhaps that is where your confusion is.

Let me be very clear once again: It's completely legal as a U.S. pilot, to fly a U.S. registered Citation to a foreign country.


While you call the exemption an STC, it is not called that by the FAA nor by the owner of the exemption. If you read the letter I posted earlier you'll see that it is referred to as "exemption 9917C" numerous times but never as an STC. Furthermore, it is not in the FAA list of STC's for Citation aircraft (in question) nor is VUE Inc. listed as an STC holder.

I am not considering non US registered aircraft or non US licensed pilots, there is no ambiguity on that point.

What is the STC number for your single pilot STC?

Not trying to be argumentative here, just explaining what made me basically stop looking at these aircraft and why.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 11:06 
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The thing is to contact the country where you want to go and see if they will accept the waiver. Probably many front line people are just unaware of this situation.

But what of transiting international airspace?
Then is ICAO governing?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 11:10 
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But that's like having an experimental. Any sub-ICAO needs either blanket permission, or special permission, or refusal from each country's CAA. Imagine on a trip to the Caribbean with lots of countries what a hassle that would be. I mean, you could just go, nobody would question a Citation, but I'm just saying if you wanted to be 100% legal.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 11:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
Would the exemption be valid for U.S. registered aircraft flown by U.S. licensed pilots outside of the US?

Note that ICAO can't actually answer that question. All they can do is provide an opinion on that question. It is up to the various member states to decide what is allowed and not, even if that is contrary to ICAO standards.

When you read the ICAO bilateral agreements and annexes, it certainly seems like a US plane flown by a US pilot in conformance with US certification rules should be allowed.

The US pilot has to follow the foreign OPERATING rules, however, but aircraft crew and qualifications are a CERTIFICATION issue.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 11:15 
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This is where you will encounter the problems. Applying for overflight/landing permits requires sending all aircraft docs and pilot docs. If they see the aircraft listed as two crew they want docs for two pilots. You can argue with them and I'm sure some can be convinced and some won't. Many countries do not require permits, only a flight plan. These countries never get to a position of checking conformity unless it is via a ramp cheque. Same hassle applies to validity of medical permits which I have experienced. I decided I did not need the hassle. That and I want another 100 knots over the citation.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 11:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
The thing is to contact the country where you want to go and see if they will accept the waiver.

The chance you can get a knowledgeable answer is close to zero. I bet if you ask three times, you get four answers.

Personally, as long as I had some document that was official looking, issued by FAA or similar, that said the plane could be flown SP, then I'd just go and not worry about it. Absolute worst case is that you have to hire a day pilot to come down to you and extract the plane. The chance this happens is nil, IMO.

Quote:
Probably many front line people are just unaware of this situation.

Precisely why official looking documentation will sway the day.

The guys on the ground can't tell the difference between a 550 and 551. The AFM of the 550 says two crew, the 551 one crew. Do they really check that?

Quote:
But what of transiting international airspace? Then is ICAO governing?

An example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanwick_Oceanic_Control

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 11:51 
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It depends where you are going. Some places do check documentation as this is a revenue stream for them. They may levy fines.

Probably your best source for the correct answer would be FSI. They teach international ops and have a lot of pilots go through there, so those guys will know the answers.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 18:09 
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I bet there are some guys on CJP (Citationjetpilots.com) that could address this in the legacy forum.

-jason

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 19:07 
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Well we can ask around. But that could open up a can of worms nobody really wants opened.

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Last edited on 06 Nov 2015, 04:54, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015, 19:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
When you read the ICAO bilateral agreements and annexes, it certainly seems like a US plane flown by a US pilot in conformance with US certification rules should be allowed.


I understand the waiver is also to the pilot.
For example, self declared medicals are not valid for international operations.
Such as when flying the LSA's out of the US.

And Canadian Recreational Pilots Licenses are not valid in the US.
But, BUT, specific permission can be requested on a case by case basis.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2015, 16:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
This is where you will encounter the problems. Applying for overflight/landing permits requires sending all aircraft docs and pilot docs. If they see the aircraft listed as two crew they want docs for two pilots. You can argue with them and I'm sure some can be convinced and some won't. Many countries do not require permits, only a flight plan. These countries never get to a position of checking conformity unless it is via a ramp cheque. Same hassle applies to validity of medical permits which I have experienced. I decided I did not need the hassle. That and I want another 100 knots over the citation.


This is a problem which you have dreamed up. It does not exist in the real world. I have flown a Citation into only ~30 countries now. I'm not sure what you mean by 'some can be convinced and some won't.' It has never even come up for discussion. I've never had to 'argue' with anyone about this. Well, except for you.

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