Mike,

I joined CJP a month or two ago. It is a semi active forum. By that I mean it is more active than Aerostar or Twin Cessna forums. I think it is more active than the TBM owner's forum. Not as active as COPA. There are a number of active pilots and posters in the 510, 525 and legacy jet forums. So, I think you will find a lot of useful information. They have also recently opened a new reference library which has a lot of really useful information in it and is the most comprehensive collection of any of the referenced owner's groups. As I have been analyzing and shopping I have found it well worth the money.

Tony

Thanks, Tony!

Mike C.

It is easy to know afterward. Besides, the Metzgers can use the $50 now, sadly...


That's the sort of statement that doesn't mean much to me as it doesn't educate me in a useful way. I need to understand it at a deeper level, where the costs come from, and what strategies an owner can use to mitigate that.

I recall people telling me all sorts of similar things about MU2s. The people who had detailed specifics were right, the generalists were generally wrong.

In this case, I don't think it is a given it costs $100K every year to maintain a jet, and I will base my decision on more detailed information.

Mike C.

Quantity sometimes does not always equate to quality. CJP has very high quality content and members that are very willing to help. I have seen a lot of "noise" on BT regarding jet ownership based on anecdotal evidence. CJP you get more candid educated responses. You have to remember, that the membership narrows down significantly with the accessibility of the type of aircraft, so you will have a smaller population of members and owner pilots than on BT.

Mike - you may be arriving at some of the same conclusion I arrived at some time ago.

There are two things that have surprised me along with the obvious:

1. The level and quality of support and service from Cessna - in one word - outstanding.
2. Predictability - if you can get a newer airframe that is or can be enrolled on ProParts and TAP (Williams) Elite/Blue - cost of ownership becomes surprisingly predictable and manageable. Also owning a fully supported airframe means that if something breaks, it is a question of hours before your are up and running again.

And... the fun part is looking down on airliners as you cross them in RVSM territory...

No, it isn't.

You can pick up Citations for under $500K all day long. They will be JT15 powered, and 1970s and 1980s (which is the same age as those TPs).

Just on controller.com, there are *30* Citations listed for under $500K.

Mike C.

We are, which is why I'm not so interested in a JT15D Citation, but a Williams powered one.

The Sierra Eagle II mod makes a 501SP cruise at 364 knots true at 89 GPH total, at least that was claimed here:

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... a-eagle-ii

"Level at FL 430, the fuel flows on the Eagle are bound to cause a second glance at the gauges. I verified a solid fuel flow at FL 430 of just under 600 pph total. Within just a few minutes, N45FS had accelerated to 177 kias (364 ktas

I think the Eagle II would do my west coast flights non stop in 4.5 hours, at least an hour faster than the Commander 1000, and 2+ hours faster than my MU2 due to a fuel stop.

The above fuel efficiency is 0.61 nm/lb for the Eagle II, the Commander is 0.75 nm/lb. Yes, the Eagle II is more fuel, but not 3 times, only about 25% more. That's not bad to go 75 knots faster.

An additional benefit is that FL430 winds are often less than the low to mid 30s, so a headwind might not be as bad up there.

If given a choice between a $1.5M Commander 1000 and a $1.5M 501SP Eagle II, I am tempted to look at the jet. The real issue is finding out what the plane *really* does, hence the interest in talking to Citation owner operators.

Mike C.

It is easy to know afterward. Besides, the Metzgers can use the $50 now, sadly...


That's the sort of statement that doesn't mean much to me as it doesn't educate me in a useful way. I need to understand it at a deeper level, where the costs come from, and what strategies an owner can use to mitigate that.

I recall people telling me all sorts of similar things about MU2s. The people who had detailed specifics were right, the generalists were generally wrong.

In this case, I don't think it is a given it costs $100K every year to maintain a jet, and I will base my decision on more detailed information.

Mike C.

One good answer is worth more than a thousand guesses.


Well, as an MU2 owner, I can say that I have enjoyed support that consistently ranks higher than Cessna's for Citation owners.


But not cheap.

I am unlikely to get a newer airframe, so no airframe program for me. I am in more of the owner involved type, not the hand the keys over and call me when done type. As such, I'm going to likely be getting the plane serviced not in the FASCs, but at a third party outfit, one where I am involved strategically in the maintenance.

As for the Williams, the scuttlebutt is that if you aren't on the engine program, they make an example of you like a mob shakedown. The engine program is rather costly, I see figures from $240 to $280/hour for both engines. For a 4000 hour TBO, this is $1+M for a set of engines over a TBO cycle, which is robbery. Surely you can buy a totally new set for that much, right? If you are on the program, the engines last 5000 hours (how do the engines know that?).

One option I would consider is to not go on an engine program. If I fly 150 hours/year, that is ~$40,000 savings per year (or about 2/3rds of my fuel costs). If the engines are young, then I won't hit HSI or TBO during my use. The market value will be affected, surely, but I bet less than $1 per $1 of engine program. I need to research this carefully, obviously.

Also, this may mean the JT15 airplanes are actually cheaper to run despite sucking down fuel because the JT15 can be overhauled by many places, lots of used engines you can buy, and the airplane is a lot cheaper to get in the first place. But the JT15 is wheezy on most older Citations.


Yes, that has a certain appeal.

Mike C.

I looked into old citations a while back and my memory was, like King Airs, the calendar inspections kill you cost wise. There are some old threads on BT where folks break out the costs in detail.

Does anyone have more details on the bacon low utilization program?

The SII would do the range, here's one for $600K:

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetai ... 344401.htm

Mike C.

http://www.baconaviation.com/citation-luip.html

Basically, this helps owners get a non manufacturer inspection program approved that extends intervals.

Makes damn good sense.

I don't know what it costs. In theory, you could bake it up yourself, but having a program that has been approved multiple times makes it much easier.

Not sure what he charges...

Mike C.

I'm not looking for one number, I'm looking for understanding of where the costs come from. Is it wear out or copious amounts of inspection? What breaks? What are the expensive things? And so on.

Mike C.

The SII would do the range, here's one for $600K:

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetai ... 344401.htm

Mike C.

This is the reputation. Got any evidence or data from an actual situation?

I can see how it would be in Williams interest to spread such a belief. I just want to be sure it has a basis in reality.

With the prices Williams charges, they should give the engines free to the OEMs. Maybe they basically do...

Mike C.

I might!

But the thing that has turned me off on the JT15 Citations is how wheezy they get climbing to altitude. One example, an SII like the above, took 43 minutes to FL370 and didn't make it to FL410 until 2 hours into the trip. I checked others, and that was pretty typical.

I've kind of gotten use to an airplane with ample power, climb to its ceiling directly, and this just feels lame. I wonder how it would be if this was in icing or some other situation that robs performance.

Mike C.