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25 May 2022, 11:40 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 00:39 
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Hi all,

Where do Citation owners and pilots hang out on the web? I'm looking to find a forum where they discuss Citation operation and issues in possible preparation to purchasing one. I'd be particularly interested in a forum with a high number of owner operators.

Thanks.

I know about this one, but seem dead:

http://www.cessnacitationforum.com/forums/

I know about this one, but it will cost me $300 just to peek inside and want to know this is the "right" place:

https://citationjetpilots.com/

Anything else?

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 01:56 
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Joined: 12/17/13
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Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
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Burn three times as much fuel to go 55kts faster? I thought you engineers were practical. ;)

http://flightlevelsonline.com/2015/spring-2015/market-report-falling-for-the-magic-of-great-legacy-aircraft/

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 04:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
Burn three times as much fuel to go 55kts faster? I thought you engineers were practical. ;)

http://flightlevelsonline.com/2015/spring-2015/market-report-falling-for-the-magic-of-great-legacy-aircraft/


Turboprops and Jets are Apples and Oranges. Next are you going to compare a Citation to a TN bonanza, and say, "why would anyone burn 10 times as much fuel to go 135 knots faster?"

To answer your question, Mike - CJP is pretty cool. The subscription fee is a little steep. There's a lot of decent information on there, but it's not quite as extensive as beechtalk. Definitely more of the wine & cheese crowd. :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 09:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
Burn three times as much fuel to go 55kts faster? I thought you engineers were practical. ;)

We are, which is why I'm not so interested in a JT15D Citation, but a Williams powered one.

The Sierra Eagle II mod makes a 501SP cruise at 364 knots true at 89 GPH total, at least that was claimed here:

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... a-eagle-ii

"Level at FL 430, the fuel flows on the Eagle are bound to cause a second glance at the gauges. I verified a solid fuel flow at FL 430 of just under 600 pph total. Within just a few minutes, N45FS had accelerated to 177 kias (364 ktas)."

I think the Eagle II would do my west coast flights non stop in 4.5 hours, at least an hour faster than the Commander 1000, and 2+ hours faster than my MU2 due to a fuel stop.

The above fuel efficiency is 0.61 nm/lb for the Eagle II, the Commander is 0.75 nm/lb. Yes, the Eagle II is more fuel, but not 3 times, only about 25% more. That's not bad to go 75 knots faster.

An additional benefit is that FL430 winds are often less than the low to mid 30s, so a headwind might not be as bad up there.

If given a choice between a $1.5M Commander 1000 and a $1.5M 501SP Eagle II, I am tempted to look at the jet. The real issue is finding out what the plane *really* does, hence the interest in talking to Citation owner operators.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 10:10 
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Mike, you can get a Jetprop 1000 for under a million if you look around a little. 1.5 is a top end version with probably the G950 suite in it and fresh engines.

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Last edited on 07 Oct 2015, 10:26, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 10:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
Mike, you can get a Jetprop 1000 for under a million if you look around a little. 1.5 is a top end version with probably the G950 suite in it.

There are 6 1000s on controller.com, 5 of them steam gauges, no listed price, when asked, all were right around $1.5M.

Never got a price for the one with a PFD. It must be in the "if you have to ask..." category.

So let me know where you find one for $1M.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 11:06 
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Joined: 11/09/13
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I was a member of the CJP for a year. The $300 seemed excessive but I did not take advantage of anything but the forum.

The people were nice and helpful. I was thinking the same way you are so I PMed some owners. They were all very receptive and honest with their thoughts and opinions.

The Williams power changes everything. Ultimately I found myself thinking if I can afford a Williams powered one why not get the citation V. The cost is the same but it does everything bigger and better.

I realized I did not need extra speed for the amount of money it would costs to buy and run the jet over a TP. Plus I like the stopping ability of the TP among other things the TP offer.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 14:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
The Williams power changes everything. Ultimately I found myself thinking if I can afford a Williams powered one why not get the citation V. The cost is the same but it does everything bigger and better.

Well, that's still a JT15D, so it sucks fuel. A V with a Williams would be a nice combination, but I'm not aware that is possible. It would take 3000+ lbf engine, say the FJ44-4.

Quote:
I realized I did not need extra speed for the amount of money it would costs to buy and run the jet over a TP. Plus I like the stopping ability of the TP among other things the TP offer.

Yup, those are considerations. This is why a Commander 1000 or a Cessna 441 are being considered as well.

The "jet think" started because those turboprop options are ~$1.5M and you can start to get decent jets that might do the job for that. The advantage of the jet is safer, faster, higher, easier. The disadvantage is runway usage, operating cost, perception.

Anecdotal evidence from a company here that owned a 690B and then got a CJ2 is that the jet is actually cheaper to maintain, more available, and more reliable.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 14:38 
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Quote:
Well, that's still a JT15D, so it sucks fuel. A V with a Williams would be a nice combination, but I'm not aware that is possible. It would take 3000+ lbf engine, say the FJ44-4.


The citation V has the range without the need of the Williams. That why it came into play for me. They all suck a lot of gas, particularly if you do short flights or get caught low.

1.5 million is the bottom of the Jets and the top af the legacy TP.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 17:15 
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Location: Charleston, SC (KJZI)
Aircraft: Phenom 300, Extra330
Phenoms have the same issue. The Phenom site is $250 which gets you access and a cool app for your ipad. However, the forum is basically dead.

Not sure what the participation rate is for Beech (and former Beech :D ) owners on Beechtalk. There are a whole lot less Phenoms flying so the blog participation is nil. There are more Cessna jets flying but I would assume that is still a fraction of the Beechcraft flying.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 19:33 
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Mike,
When I was searching for a PC12, I called my nearest Pilatus service center to ask some maintenance questions. They offered to sponsor my 1st year POPA fees ($300) before I purchased a plane. You might contact a Citation service center that you would most likely use if you purchased a Citation and see if they will sponsor your CJP membership. It's pretty cheap sales investment for them (and they might not have to pay a thing to CJP).

Even if you have to pay the $300, that's cheap insurance with a good or bad purchase decision. That's like $30 in the turboprop world - just add another 0 to everything you do with a jet. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 20:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
1.5 million is the bottom of the Jets

No, it isn't.

You can pick up Citations for under $500K all day long. They will be JT15 powered, and 1970s and 1980s (which is the same age as those TPs).

Just on controller.com, there are *30* Citations listed for under $500K.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 21:37 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
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Username Protected wrote:
Even if you have to pay the $300, that's cheap insurance with a good or bad purchase decision.

The $300 is not a problem, IF that gets in with the right folks. I want to talk to the owner operators, maybe the staff that turns left, but not so much the turns right crowd.

I paid $50 for a supposed Commander forum only to find out there wasn't really one and I was directed to an old hardly used one open to the public.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 22:04 
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Joined: 07/23/09
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Username Protected wrote:
Even if you have to pay the $300, that's cheap insurance with a good or bad purchase decision.

The $300 is not a problem, IF that gets in with the right folks. I want to talk to the owner operators, maybe the staff that turns left, but not so much the turns right crowd.

I paid $50 for a supposed Commander forum only to find out there wasn't really one and I was directed to an old hardly used one open to the public.

Mike C.


I hear you but don't expect beechtalk level of activity. You might PM Allen Wolpert, I believe he is active on CJP.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 22:18 
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Joined: 08/09/11
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Company: Naples Jet Center
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Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
Username Protected wrote:
Even if you have to pay the $300, that's cheap insurance with a good or bad purchase decision.

The $300 is not a problem, IF that gets in with the right folks. I want to talk to the owner operators, maybe the staff that turns left, but not so much the turns right crowd.

I paid $50 for a supposed Commander forum only to find out there wasn't really one and I was directed to an old hardly used one open to the public.

Mike C.


I could have saved you the $50, all you had to do was ask my friend. CJP - well worth $300 but it's not going to help much with a purchase decision. The reality is there is no forum where most of the upper end of aviation "hangs out." Those folks generally depend on professionals and are less interested in planes as a hobby or passion. Generally.

As far as late model jet economy, yes, they should be reliable. But it will cost you $100k/yr min to maintain, minimum. Then you can start spending money. I'm just saying this for the benefit of those of us who fantasize about flying a jet for $1.27/hr. Not happening. I'm referencing the program cost at typical yearly/hourly minimums for a CJ1 or Phenom 100 type plane. Today's planes are sold with more and more emphasis on these programs and you either go with the flow or look out for parts pricing that make magnesium elevators look cheap! :duck:

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