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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2015, 20:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
I wouldn't use SJC departure climb info as the "norm" for Citation climb data.

The track log shows no level offs on the climb, so this wasn't a climb impeded by ATC or routing.
Attachment:
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Mike C.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2015, 21:48 
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Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
Username Protected wrote:

I know about this one, but it will cost me $300 just to peek inside and want to know this is the "right" place:

https://citationjetpilots.com/

Anything else?

Mike C.


CJP will give you 60 - 90 days free to peek inside and decide if you want to pay.

Register and cancel out at the payment page. There should be an email contact on the payment page for you to email saying you want a trial membership. If you have problems with that PM me here.

You will not find a better technical library then at CJP.

JSSI's claim is they are the only company authorized to have tech reps on site at Williams when a customers engine goes through HSI or OH. The JSSI tech rep will help manage Williams costs.

All of the Cessna and Williams programs have minimum annual hours of 150 or more. This can make it more expensive for someone who flies less then the minimum. The minimums are a bit negotiable but I haven't head them going below 125 hours annually. When you are flying a fast jet you do less hours per year.

Williams engine maintenance is outstanding. I recently had my engines go through its first HSI. Delivered the plane to a Citation Setvice Center and engines were removed and shipped to Williams. That check can be done on the plane but my engines had a service bulletin that required a bearing replacement that had to be done at the factory. Turnaround was 5 days at Williams. All costs were paid for by the program.

There was also a service bulletin to replace the Fuel Delivery Units but Williams did not have parts to do that when they had the engines. I got an IOU and a few weeks later was asked to bring the plane into the service center where the FDUs were replaced.

Benefits of being on the Williams engine program include all service bull items are done when they have the engine; no issues if corrosion is found; no issues if FOD is found. Williams creates a lot of incentive to be on the program.

_________________
Allen


Last edited on 08 Oct 2015, 23:34, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2015, 23:21 
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Joined: 01/31/09
Posts: 5233
Post Likes: +3026
Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
Username Protected wrote:
As far as late model jet economy, yes, they should be reliable. But it will cost you $100k/yr min to maintain, minimum.

That's the sort of statement that doesn't mean much to me as it doesn't educate me in a useful way. I need to understand it at a deeper level, where the costs come from, and what strategies an owner can use to mitigate that.


Strategies to mitigate costs:

- Don't use the Citation Service Centers except when they are the only options.
- Find an experienced independent shop - Sierra, Westar, Duncan.
- You or your shop needs to do good parts shopping. Exchanges are the most expensive. If you can wait to have your part overhauled you save a lot. You can sometimes bypass Cessna's upcharge and go direct to the OEM.

Citations need a once every 3 year major inspection called a Doc 10. For a 525 that can cost $50,000 at a Citation Service Center and around $35,000 at independents. There are lots of small inspections over the course of a year that can be done cost effectively if you have local folks to do it.

You have your fuel and engine program expense for DOC.

You have your insurance, hangar, data bases etc. cost.

A fairly new plane like mine has little maintenance costs beyond consumables like tires and brakes and light bulbs. An older plane is harder to predict and depends how many hours are on what components. Starter/generators need to be OH'd every 1,000 hours for around $4,000. Evaporator fans burn out every 1,000 hours or so and cost around $4,000. A brake job can cost $20,000 and last around 1,000 landings. Tires run around $1,000 each installed and last around 250 landings.

If you are thinking about a 500/501/550/551 then talk with Sierra about what they see. I think Sierra charges around $20,000 flat rate for the Doc 10 inspection plus repairs on the legacy Citations. Fuel leaks from the wings are an issue in legacy Citations and are expensive to repair.

What surprises await you in maintenance expense depends on the plane you get. Costs for some parts on the older Citations can be shocking. Depends on how lucky or unlucky you are. Costs on a fairly new Citation are pretty predictable.

Join CJP and you can browse the Forum and read the few maintenance horror stories. There are not that many.

So in summary:

- Buy the right plane
- Find an experienced independent shop
- Be good at parts shopping

Nothing special about managing the costs of a Citation. You are just dealing with an order of magnitude greater costs to manage and have greater risks and rewards.
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Allen


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2015, 23:48 
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Joined: 01/31/09
Posts: 5233
Post Likes: +3026
Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
Username Protected wrote:
Sorry if that feels 'lame' to you.

10 minutes to 10,000 ft, 28 minutes to FL280, 45 minutes to FL370 feels lame to me.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N499 ... S/tracklog

One wonders about what the climb rate would have been with one engine out. This plane looks like it couldn't do a number of ODPs with an engine failure.

Nominal book figures for an SII are 3,040 FPM and 860 FPM OEI. I understand temperature plays a role, it affects me, too, but this feels like this is more than that. The departure temperature at KSJC was 29 C, or ISA + 14.


Thats why those legacy Citations are nicknamed slow-tations.

Based on the ground speed it doesn't look to me like he was trying to climb more than 1,000 fpm initially. That is probably so he maintains airspeed in the climb which he will need as energy to get up to FL370. He could have got to the low FL's quicker but then run out of airspeed in the climb.

If he is OEI then he is not going to climb much above what he needs to clear terrain.

There has been lots of improvements in engine performance in the FL's from the Pratts to the Williams to the Williams FADEC engines.

You learn what climb profile works for an aircraft. My plane can climb 1,500 fpm to FL410. It could do 2,500 fpm or more up to FL230 or so but would not have the airspeed and energy to climb much further.
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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 00:40 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Citations need a once every 3 year major inspection called a Doc 10.

Bacon's low utilization maintenance plan expands this to 6 years as well as extends other compliance times.

Quote:
A fairly new plane like mine has little maintenance costs beyond consumables like tires and brakes and light bulbs.

Cost of capital, depreciation of market value is the offset for a newer, more costly airplane. It seems pretty clear to me that I'm in the legacy Citation class as I'd prefer lower hull value even if that increases operating costs. Oddly enough, I also prefer the greater flexibility of an older airframe with less restrictive rules, like the ability to change the avionics (there is a G600 STC for legacy Citations, for example).

Quote:
Starter/generators need to be OH'd every 1,000 hours for around $4,000.

TPE331 S/Gs last 1000 hours, too, but OH is $1200.

Quote:
Evaporator fans burn out every 1,000 hours or so and cost around $4,000.

Boost pumps on the MU2 are similar, burn out every 1000 hours, but exchange is $1K.

Can't someone make a motor that lasts? I find that bizarre.

Quote:
A brake job can cost $20,000 and last around 1,000 landings. Tires run around $1,000 each installed and last around 250 landings.

Works out to $32 per landing (assuming all 3 tires are $1K and 250 landings each). I suspect good technique on touch down and gentle use of brakes when possible can extend tire and brake life.

For an SII, Goodyear Flight Eagle 22x8.00-10 (mains) is $645 new, 18x4.4 (nose) is $495. Retreads may be an option.

See, I'm already shopping...

Quote:
Join CJP and you can browse the Forum and read the few maintenance horror stories. There are not that many.

Every type has those. I'm used to the process of strategically managing an old airframe so I can handle the complexities that come along with that. I'll have a maintenance manual, parts book, wiring diagram, etc, which help a lot with debugging problems so you replace/fix the right part.

Quote:
Nothing special about managing the costs of a Citation. You are just dealing with an order of magnitude greater costs to manage and have greater risks and rewards.

Is it really 10 times over my MU2? I'm hoping it can be managed to about 2X, about $30-40K/year.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 08:33 
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Joined: 03/01/14
Posts: 2128
Post Likes: +1607
Location: 0TX0 Granbury TX
Aircraft: T-210M Aeronca 7AC
Is someone trying to chisel you out of your airplane or are you tired of flying in the 20s? Have you looked at Lear 31s? It's a lot of fun to fly.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 08:46 
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Joined: 01/29/09
Posts: 4693
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Company: retired corporate mostly
Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
Quote:
en with that a 747 or 777 will blow right past a CJ4 in cruise.


true! If I had that fuel flow, I could go that fast also...for maybe 15 minutes.. :bugeye: .

There are a lot of faster planes...It has always been a compromise with airplanes.

_________________
Jeff

soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 08:47 
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Joined: 02/10/12
Posts: 6819
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Company: Minister of Pith
Location: Florida
Aircraft: Piper PA28/140
Username Protected wrote:
Is someone trying to chisel you out of your airplane or are you tired of flying in the 20s? Have you looked at Lear 31s? It's a lot of fun to fly.

Not SP.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 09:25 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23613
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Is someone trying to chisel you out of your airplane or are you tired of flying in the 20s?

Business interests on the west coast means more trips of ~1650 nm.

If MU2 could do that non stop, wouldn't be thinking about something else with quite as much vigor.

I was firstly thinking Commander 1000 or Conquest 441. About $1.5M entry fee. So I wondered what I could get in a jet for that. Maybe I can join the 400 knot club.

Quote:
Have you looked at Lear 31s?

Not SP.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 10:20 
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Joined: 01/31/09
Posts: 5233
Post Likes: +3026
Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
Username Protected wrote:
Citations need a once every 3 year major inspection called a Doc 10.

Bacon's low utilization maintenance plan expands this to 6 years as well as extends other compliance times.


The low utilization program doesn't keep things from failing over the 6 years. I am not sure I want to go 6 years without a major inspection. It may save you one $20,000 inspection but it may also lead to an AOG incident in an inconvenient place that uses that savings.

Quote:
Is it really 10 times over my MU2? I'm hoping it can be managed to about 2X, about $30-40K/year.


Doubt it will be 10X your MU-2 costs. Spending $250K over 6 years for airframe maintenance is conceivable if you start with the right airframe. Expenditure of that money can be very lumpy.

Quote:
Cost of capital, depreciation of market value is the offset for a newer, more costly airplane. It seems pretty clear to me that I'm in the legacy Citation class as I'd prefer lower hull value even if that increases operating costs. Oddly enough, I also prefer the greater flexibility of an older airframe with less restrictive rules, like the ability to change the avionics (there is a G600 STC for legacy Citations, for example).


Depreciation for Citations seems to have leveled out in the last 2 years. For $1.5MM you can look at an 501SP w/Williams engines, an early Mustang, or a CJ/CJ1.

A steam gauge CJ gives you a newer airframe and the avionics flexibility you want. Check the load vs. range that you need. For under $2MM you can get a 560 with better load/range but not Williams engines.

There are a few ex-MU-2 drivers on CJP. One who has a CJ and another who got an early Mustang. If you don't know them I can PM you their info.

Some folks have at CJP have posted about their G600 upgrades. The two limitations noted are lack of Mach on the PFD and not being able to fly enroute VNAV SID/STARS.

Quote:
TPE331 S/Gs last 1000 hours, too, but OH is $1200.


Note my $4,000 was for two.

Quote:
Can't someone make a motor that lasts?


I think the issue is brushes wearing and arcing in the thin air at altitude. Cessna has tried to move to brushless motors but they are more expensive.

Quote:
Works out to $32 per landing (assuming all 3 tires are $1K and 250 landings each). I suspect good technique on touch down and gentle use of brakes when possible can extend tire and brake life.

For an SII, Goodyear Flight Eagle 22x8.00-10 (mains) is $645 new, 18x4.4 (nose) is $495. Retreads may be an option.


Really depends on the runway lengths you operate from. You don't have prop reverse and most Citations don't have thrust reversers to help stop so brakes take a beating. I think retreads are false economy on a jet.

BTW, I think you need to get into a CJ2 before you will see 400 kts in cruise. The ones we are discussing will do the high 3s.
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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 10:56 
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Joined: 03/04/13
Posts: 2568
Post Likes: +1234
Location: Little Rock, Ar
Aircraft: A36 C560 C551 C550S
Username Protected wrote:
Is someone trying to chisel you out of your airplane or are you tired of flying in the 20s?

Business interests on the west coast means more trips of ~1650 nm.

If MU2 could do that non stop, wouldn't be thinking about something else with quite as much vigor.

I was firstly thinking Commander 1000 or Conquest 441. About $1.5M entry fee. So I wondered what I could get in a jet for that. Maybe I can join the 400 knot club.

Quote:
Have you looked at Lear 31s?

Not SP.

Mike C.


1650nm legs going west especially in the winter is a pretty tall order nonstop

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 10:58 
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Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6322
Post Likes: +5520
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
1650nm going west against the winds, without stopping and having a healthy IFR reserve of an hour? That's a 1900-2000nm plane with zero wind, or a 2500nm plane with real world winds.

Let me make it easy for you, Mike. There is no such thing SP. Maybe a Merlin IIIB, or if you splash out for a SJ30. Those are your only two SP options.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 11:45 
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Joined: 11/09/13
Posts: 1911
Post Likes: +926
Location: KCMA
Aircraft: Aero Commander 980
Username Protected wrote:

Strategies to mitigate costs:

- Don't use the Citation Service Centers except when they are the only options.
- Find an experienced independent shop - Sierra, Westar, Duncan.
- You or your shop needs to do good parts shopping. Exchanges are the most expensive. If you can wait to have your part overhauled you save a lot. You can sometimes bypass Cessna's upcharge and go direct to the OEM.

Citations need a once every 3 year major inspection called a Doc 10. For a 525 that can cost $50,000 at a Citation Service Center and around $35,000 at independents. There are lots of small inspections over the course of a year that can be done cost effectively if you have local folks to do it.

You have your fuel and engine program expense for DOC.

You have your insurance, hangar, data bases etc. cost.

A fairly new plane like mine has little maintenance costs beyond consumables like tires and brakes and light bulbs. An older plane is harder to predict and depends how many hours are on what components. Starter/generators need to be OH'd every 1,000 hours for around $4,000. Evaporator fans burn out every 1,000 hours or so and cost around $4,000. A brake job can cost $20,000 and last around 1,000 landings. Tires run around $1,000 each installed and last around 250 landings.

If you are thinking about a 500/501/550/551 then talk with Sierra about what they see. I think Sierra charges around $20,000 flat rate for the Doc 10 inspection plus repairs on the legacy Citations. Fuel leaks from the wings are an issue in legacy Citations and are expensive to repair.

What surprises await you in maintenance expense depends on the plane you get. Costs for some parts on the older Citations can be shocking. Depends on how lucky or unlucky you are. Costs on a fairly new Citation are pretty predictable.

Join CJP and you can browse the Forum and read the few maintenance horror stories. There are not that many.

So in summary:

- Buy the right plane
- Find an experienced independent shop
- Be good at parts shopping

Nothing special about managing the costs of a Citation. You are just dealing with an order of magnitude greater costs to manage and have greater risks and rewards.


Excellent post!


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 11:54 
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Joined: 11/09/13
Posts: 1911
Post Likes: +926
Location: KCMA
Aircraft: Aero Commander 980
Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
en with that a 747 or 777 will blow right past a CJ4 in cruise.


true! If I had that fuel flow, I could go that fast also...for maybe 15 minutes.. :bugeye: .

There are a lot of faster planes...It has always been a compromise with airplanes.


Put more sweep on the wing of that CJ4 and add leading edge devices and you now have the best of both worlds.

It's a compromise between cost and weight for the small jets.

When comparing many of the small jets to TP you realize the TP are pretty good for the money.

The CJ4 is one of the best. It just costs to much.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation owners and pilots
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2015, 12:29 
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Joined: 01/31/09
Posts: 5233
Post Likes: +3026
Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
On this page - http://www.sijet.com/maintenance-inspections Sierra has PDF's by model that list the phase inspections and their costs.

Sierra has a Range Map here - http://www.sijet.com/range-map and you can compare the claimed range of different models. I am sure Mike will validate and question the assumptions underlying this presentation.

Sierra claims ranges for their Stallion (501 w/Williams) at 1820 SM; Stallion XR 2,336 SM; Eagle II SP 2,288 SM; Super II 2,376 SM; Super II XR 2,844, & Super S-II 3,005 SM.

Lots of data in their catalog - http://www.sijet.com/download/Sierra_2013-14_CitationPerforrmance.pdf?inline

Attachment:
2015-10-09_1231.png


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