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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2015, 12:30 
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Hoo Boy you two deserve each other.

:cheers:


Whatever you come up with will be appreciated.
;)

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Forrest

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 12:17 
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Esquire Green might have exaggerated a bit....

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 12:19 
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Esquire Green might have exaggerated a bit....

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 12:58 
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Forrest,


I may have to get with Stan. Last time I flew with him, he shut one off on approach while i was under the hood and made me land like that, but not before killing my gear down lights and chewing my butt out because I didn't say something. I saw it, just didn't seem important at the time. :bugeye: :bugeye: :scratch:

Jgreen

John

I'm curios to know how easy or not it was to restart the engine on the ground after you landed with the prop, feathered? (or that's what I assume you did)

Hilgard


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 16:47 
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no...zero thrust. Important to do as part of twin transition training, in my opinion...need to take one all the way to touchdown.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 19:21 
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Stan,

And just what was it that I embellished??? :bugeye: You shut one down with me under the hood and made me shoot the approach, and land, and killed the gear down lights at about 200' AGL, and got my butt 'cause I didn't say "something" like "Oh ****!"

Huh? did I leave anything out.

Now, see next post hereunder. :peace:

Jgreen
Uh that would be Esquire Green :bow:

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 19:46 
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So, I promised to do the engine out thingie to determine the gait of a one-legged Aerostar on approach.

I was limited in what I felt comfortable doing as I didn't have Stan "The Assassinator" on board to keep an "eye" on things. My "safety pilot" was not an instructor or A* qualified so all he could do was watch and yell "oh ****" a couple of times. :D

I used the zero thrust numbers provided by Mr. Jim Christy, no I didn't shut one down, but I probably will when Stan mounts the right seat.

I pulled the right engine, gear and flaps up and pushed the power up to about 80% on the left engine. I thought something was amiss as it wouldn't slow below 150 knots indicated. OK, so I dropped the flaps to 20 degrees and the gear. Yes, we were light but in that configuration we held blue line with only 27" of MAP. Lowering the nose to approach configuration of 116 knots and 650 fpm descent, took about the same power, nothing there.

I pulled gear and flaps up, powered up the right engine, donned the hood and shot a LPV approach. Three miles outside the FAF, as is my custom, I slowed the airplane, dropped 20 degrees of flaps, at FAF, dropped gear and set up 16" MAP, joined the glide slope then pulled the left engine. Flying on the "critical" right engine made a difference. I had to power up to almost 29" to maintain the 116 knot approach and stay on the GS and heading. I did notice somewhere into the approach that I had pulled the engine below zero thrust, but I will still maintain that you will get diminished performance with the left engine pulled and will notice same.

When I get with Stan, I would like, with his permission of course, for him to completely shut down the left engine and let me do the same thing.

All in all, I won't say that it was a "non-event" because I was working pretty hard and did get slightly off both the LOC and the ILS, but neither to the point that I would have flunked a check ride with both engines turning.

I think the obvious. That if you are "expecting" and know what to do immediately, you are going to be OK even if you lose one in the clouds and on the approach.

The immediate gait in that configuration is: engine feathered and good engine to max power and fly whatever speed that gives you.

I will say this. When my Aspens were installed, the avionics shop removed both my steam AS and ALT without telling me. BAD MOVE. I'm having them reinstalled in December at Carpenter along with some other work. I would have felt MUCH BETTER to have been monitoring my speed in the engine out configuration with the steam gauge airspeed indicator.

So, that's what I have to offer today. Told most of what I can tell you at this point. With a qualified pilot in the right seat, we could have documented a lot more. It didn't bother my dog Sweetie much who was asleep in the back seat, but the "safety pilot" may never fly with me again. :D

Jgreen

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 19:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
Forrest,


I may have to get with Stan. Last time I flew with him, he shut one off on approach while i was under the hood and made me land like that, but not before killing my gear down lights and chewing my butt out because I didn't say something. I saw it, just didn't seem important at the time. :bugeye: :bugeye: :scratch:

Jgreen

John

I'm curios to know how easy or not it was to restart the engine on the ground after you landed with the prop, feathered? (or that's what I assume you did)

Hilgard


Goosen, you need a Merlin and you know it! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 21:39 
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Username Protected wrote:



Goosen, you need a Merlin and you know it! :D


I have absolutely no allure toward Garrett's, thought has never even crossed my mind till you made this post.

:liar:

Hilgard


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 21:53 
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Username Protected wrote:

I will say this. When my Aspens were installed, the avionics shop removed both my steam AS and ALT without telling me. BAD MOVE. I'm having them reinstalled in December at Carpenter along with some other work. I would have felt MUCH BETTER to have been monitoring my speed in the engine out configuration with the steam gauge airspeed indicator.

Jgreen


John,

Do you mean you would have felt better monitoring your steam gauges as back up to the Aspen AS and ALT or as primary?

Thanks.

Tony

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 22:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
no...zero thrust. Important to do as part of twin transition training, in my opinion...need to take one all the way to touchdown.


Thanks

I Canada we have to fly an approach on one engine with Zero thrust for the multi-IFR, second to the OEI training done in the multi rating, so I am pretty used to all of that. However when I got my 414 and now with the 421 I much prefer doing OEI with the engine actually feathered. The realism of it hammers the concepts home much better.

However I have never landed like that as I thought the engine could not be started on the ground with the prop feathered, thus prompting my question...
The landing characteristics will be different landing with one feathered vs zero thrust as there is little drag on the feathered prop.

Hilgard


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 22:41 
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They will crank up feathered just fine. Just keep the throttle back until it flattens out, which may take a little longer than you might expect.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2015, 22:59 
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Username Protected wrote:

I will say this. When my Aspens were installed, the avionics shop removed both my steam AS and ALT without telling me. BAD MOVE. I'm having them reinstalled in December at Carpenter along with some other work. I would have felt MUCH BETTER to have been monitoring my speed in the engine out configuration with the steam gauge airspeed indicator.

Jgreen


John,

Do you mean you would have felt better monitoring your steam gauges as back up to the Aspen AS and ALT or as primary?

Thanks.

Tony


Tony,

The Aspen allows no periphery vision of airspeed decay, IMO. You have to move your focus to check airspeeds and in this configuration, airspeed is critically important.

I find the same true of altitude in all realms of flight with "glass". Personally, I pick up changes of both airspeed and altitude much faster with steam gauges. I've had this conversation with some very knowledgeable and experienced pilots who seem to agree with me. One was an Aspen rep and pilot.

I believe that in the very high workload environ I put myself in today, that I would have done a better job of flying on steam than glass.

I've been trying to "teach" myself to follow the blue altitude triangle (or whatever shape it is) so that I recognize altitude variations more quickly when I am hand flying in IFR, real or simulated.

Jgreen
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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 01 Oct 2015, 00:19 
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A more accurate comparison would be a b55 and an A600. No turbos or pressurization makes them the same maintenance wise. The question would be do you like doing 180ktas on 24gph, or 210ktas on 26?

The A fits in some T hangars, they have to be pretty big, the A is just over 13 feet tall at the tail.



As for the simulated one vs really shutting one down and landing.. it's not fun. Don't do it. I've had an engine caged twice in a Navajo, they do fly a little different compared to simulated feather, but it's close enough not to matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 01 Oct 2015, 07:29 
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Username Protected wrote:
Stan,

And just what was it that I embellished??? :bugeye: You shut one down with me under the hood and made me shoot the approach, and land, and killed the gear down lights at about 200' AGL, and got my butt 'cause I didn't say "something" like "Oh ****!"

Huh? did I leave anything out.

Now, see next post hereunder. :peace:

Jgreen
Uh that would be Esquire Green :bow:



:whistle:

Now, I'll never get another multi student......


:whiteflag:


Okay...serious note here for a minute...I do think that landing with one feathered is important in transition/multi training. I will also say that not every one agrees with me. It is not an FAA requirement, but I think if you've done it in training, then if it happens for real you are better prepared to handle it.

Before anyone comes out with torches and pitchforks...I agree...you are creating a situation that is essentially an emergency situation to train for an emergency situation. However....that is somewhat true for a lot of training. Better to do it with someone in the plane with you, that can help mitigate it, than to experience it for the first time on your own.


When was the last time you feathered a prop on your twin? How do you know it will feather? Sometimes they'll feather/unfeather on the ground, and won't in flight. Had that happen on a Beech 18 a couple years ago doing a BFR...had to land with one feathered, because it wouldn't come out of feather. At all....so I was glad I had done a OEI landing in a BE18 before.


Esq. Green was doing an excellent job of flying his Aerostar on one engine...so, just to add to the experience, he also experienced a (simulated) gear failure along with it. BTW, managed that correctly as well. (yes, if I can't get the gear down when I'm flying on one engine, and I'm IFR, it's a gear up landing....hello, insurance company...)


Training *should* be somewhat stressful...because, when the SHTF for real, it's stressful. Part (not all) of training is learning how to deal with things when it becomes overwhelming...that's "helmet fire insurance".

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---the EFI, POF-----


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