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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 17:41 
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Nope. You need to be coordinated though. You should be anyhow.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 17:44 
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gear down speed 156 kts... I don't know how you would put them down in a descent? You're indicating 156 KIAS at FL200 in level flight... you want to descend... you will have to level again before you can drop the gear unless you have the power WAY back.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 20:12 
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Its easy, if you need to go down, you just trim for the descent rate you need, Vno is high enough you can hold cruise power until you're 10 out, once you are level, come back to 18-20", drop 10 deg of flaps, by the time you get to 5 out you'll be well under gear speed, gear down, flaps 20, will give you -5-600/min, @ 500'AGL (landing assured) landing flaps, cross the fence at 100, and touch down at 85-95.

:pilot:

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Last edited on 25 Sep 2015, 09:39, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 20:39 
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No speed restriction on 10 degrees flap, so you can use it as a brake. They are stout. Whenever I get ATC descents in the Aerostar all I do is push the nose over. Never throttle back - green arc goes almost all the way to Vne. I just take the speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 20:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
gear down speed 156 kts... I don't know how you would put them down in a descent? You're indicating 156 KIAS at FL200 in level flight... you want to descend... you will have to level again before you can drop the gear unless you have the power WAY back.


The only time the gear should be down in the descent is a) your bird is stiff legged, or b) you didn't plan correctly, or c) you're in an emergency descent. You don't use the gear to get down, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 23:13 
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Joined: 06/16/10
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Aircraft: 601P
As Adam and Craig both say - the Aerostar behaves more like a jet in that it's flaps first to slow down (my 601P says 176IAS for up to 20degrees - curious as to why Adam has no limit) then gear at 156.

Gear down descents - like speedbrakes - are for my mistakes - not ATCs.....!

I still occasionally go screaming over the top of the field at about 200kts when I've left things a bit late!

The requirement to only put gear down coordinated is so that the sideslip doesn't rip the gear doors off. Most I know therefore only gear down straight (but not necessarily level).


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 23:22 
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The devil is in the details, Richard. It's the omission in the POH that allows the 10 degrees to be taken out at any speed. It's only the actual 20 degree (and subsequent settings) that has a speed limit. :thumbup:

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Last edited on 24 Sep 2015, 23:23, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 23:23 
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Username Protected wrote:
The requirement to only put gear down coordinated is so that the sideslip doesn't rip the gear doors off. Most I know therefore only gear down straight (but not necessarily level).

To be clear this is only an issue while the gear is in transition. Fully up or fully down side-slip all you want.

Glenn


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2015, 23:59 
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I couldnt find any g loading restrictions with flaps down.. Are there any listed in the POH?


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2015, 08:37 
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Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
Aircraft: Baron, 180,195,J-3
Ralph Butcher, a very experienced instructor and the author of multiple training manuals and syllabus (susses :D ) recommends a method of flying as building your techniques around "gaits". A gait, as offered by Butcher, is that each mode of flight should be established and set.. It's really very simple. For climb, you will have climb power and a pre-determined speed. You should then have, more or less, a known climb. Cruise gaits should be also "set" for various settings, with IAS, known to the pilot and "expected".

Descent, early approach, final, short final, ILS approach, etc.

The point is that if the pilot has these gaits set, he should know closely the resulting performance to expect.

Some people object to this as being too mechanical and rigid as if it insults their "natural pilotage skills". Not at all really. As Bob Hoover always preached, "the key to being a good pilot, is speed control."

So "gaits" give you a method of speed control in all configurations.

The point is that I have found the A* to be the perfect airplane to fly by gaits.

When being vectored into an arrival area by center, I am quick to go to 10 and 20 degree flaps for speed control. To me, the single most admirable trait of the Aerostar is its predictability in most regimes of flight.

Flying an approach is merely a matter of shifting your gaits to slower speeds and approach configurations. At the FAF, 20 degrees of flaps, gear down, and you will ride the rail right down the ILS/LPV at 116 knots, the slightest pitch inputs keeping you on vertical course.

So, that's my two cents for the day. :dance:

Y'all be careful now. :peace:

Jgreen

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2015, 12:15 
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The A* is so versatile that you can set those gaits in a wide variety depending on your habits. I maintain 140 indicated in mine until minimums (which I still use on every approach, even on visual approaches; I'm ready and briefed on the missed approach procedure regardless of WX, I find that to be a very good habit to be in), reduce throttles to idle (or throttle up for the missed), flaps 40 when the field is made. Usually puts me at ~95 over the fence, grease it every time.

Speed control is the mark of a good pilot, but airspeed is life. I'm not saying you're wrong for coming FAF forward at 116 indicated John, but if you pop a motor on the way in from the FAF ~5NM out you're in deep %#$@. Ever tried recovering speed and altitude at blue line or below on that thing? I recommend it, it will make you a believer, and that's on the 700.

I think slowing like that at the FAF, while taught as proper procedure, is why so often Vmc rolls often happen on short final.

Airspeed is life.

Also, you might feel no it easier to maintain vertical profile with the power and maintain airspeed with the yoke. I learned that a while ago, things got much simpler for me, just wanted to share, not trying to be preachy.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2015, 16:16 
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Joined: 11/16/12
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Location: KFWS
Aircraft: E55 IO550s
I've followed Adam's thread with interest, especially since I am looking into buying a twin. I was originally looking at a 55 model vs a C310, and then Adam's Aerostar thread re-emerged...
Here are some questions:
1. Maintenance - it seems to be quite a bit more expensive than a Baron. Everyone I talked to agrees with that. Also, harder to find mechanics that know how to maintain them. Adam posted his last annual bill and while not the worst I've seen, definitely more expensive than the usual 4k annual that a B55 would generate.
2. Hanger space - I believe this would not fit into a regular T-hanger, correct?
3. I have no twin time, about 400 hrs total time, IFR rated. I fly about 100-150 hrs/year. Would this be too much of an airplane to start with in the twin world?
4. Am I unfair in trying to compare the 601P with a B55?

Thanks
Stefan


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2015, 16:59 
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Those two birds aren't in the same ballpark in many ways, MX included. A 58P compares more to an Aerostar, except that Aerostar is a much better bird.

They're easy to fly. That's enough time.

They fit any T hangar I ever tried to get into.

Personally, I prefer the 700s.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2015, 18:55 
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Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Stefan -

1. Aerostars are not per se more maintenance intensive than a 58P, but perhaps slightly more so than a 55. The two turbos aside and the waste gates are the things that will cost a bit more over time, but it's not earth shattering. Turbos are about $1500 to overhaul and they'll last about 1000hrs. Wastegates are a little more for new ones, but an overhaul runs about the same as the turbo. Everything else is pretty straightforward - they're just regular IO-540's. The pressurization system is solid and won't cost much to maintain. Reasonably few AD's and a very sturdy landing gear. They have tendency to wear on the inner tires, though. I'd say the tires last about 200hrs, but they're not that expensive, thankfully.

2. No. The width would, but the way the wing is mounted aft the flaps will hit the T-part.

3. It's enough. Just get the approved 5-day training with Don Smith or Lester Kyle and you'll be good.

4. No, but the 58P is probably the closest in performance. Except for top speed, where the King Air C90 is closer... :dance: :box: :D

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2015, 23:06 
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Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
Aircraft: Baron, 180,195,J-3
Craig,

Judging from your statement that:

"Speed control is the mark of a good pilot, but airspeed is life. I'm not saying you're wrong for coming FAF forward at 116 indicated John, but if you pop a motor on the way in from the FAF ~5NM out you're in deep %#$@."

I would have to say that our perceptions of the Aerostar's engine out capabilities are "not similar". In fact, I find all flight regimes of the Aerostar to be benign until you put down full flaps. In that case, I would agree. I won't be there, with full flaps, until I'm visual and have the runway made.

I have pulled, and have had an engine pulled, while under the hood, in that exact configuration and consider it a non-event.

If I thought the Aerostar had to be flown on approach at 32 knots over blue line to be manageable with an engine failure I would never sit in another one.


I'm not criticizing or judging your approach methods as they apply to you. They just don't "fit" me.

Jgreen

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