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19 Jun 2021, 15:18 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup (banner)



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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 21:02 
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Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 3807
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Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
FWIW on mine..

I had them adjusted per the Machen installation instructions that Eric references above. No change.

I swapped controllers from left to right, and even a loaner from Jimmy. No change.

I did the pressure test on the actuators and the numbers were right in the center of where the installation instructions recommended. No change.

I rebuilt the air boxes and all new consumables on the flapper doors. It seems like I also test flew it with speed tape over the doors. No change.

I had the Shultz STC'd filters. I did test flights without the elements to verify they were not the issue. No change.

I cleaned the orifice fittings multiple times, never finding any contaminants. No change

I eventually proved my issue was a wastegate issue by physically tying the wastegates closed and doing a test flight. It made 100% power per the charts.

I broke down and overhauled both turbos on the engine with the bigger issue as Ken at AOA swore the turbos wouldn't last as long as they did (900 hours). Turns out that answer was BS and there was no change.

I later had a nice conference call between John in parts and Jim Christy about adjusting them after I sent a video asking for help solving the issue. Helped slightly, but no real change.

I lubbed them exactly as Eric mentioned at every oil change, and usually once in between as they were easy to lubricate while I was tinkering. No changes.

Like was mentioned to me toward the end of my ownership. Those turbos are more than adequate, especially for the airplane without the 5.5 PSI/high altitude mod.

I gave up and sent the airplane to Joel at Juliet Delta Aviation in Harrisburg as part of a prebuy. During the prebuy, he found one actuator slightly leaking, so it was resealed. Based on the flight home, that didn't change the results much if any.

That was not the reason I sold the airplane (I purely needed more seats for my charity work), but I don't miss spending time working on that issue. It was literally 50%+ of my time spent on maintenance on the airplane.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 10 May 2021, 20:56 
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Joined: 08/09/11
Posts: 1068
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Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
Jason - sounds frustrating. what was the issue with yours again? How old were the wastegates?


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 10 May 2021, 23:39 
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Joined: 11/25/19
Posts: 52
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Aircraft: Aerostar 601P
Don’t know what was wrong with Jason’s wastegates but this is what I think:

I think the common wastegate sticking issue is lead and combustion products get stuck in the wastegate shaft/bearing bores. Causing the butterfly to bind on the body of the wastegate. You can lube all you want, but unless you remove the deposits causing the binding your not going to have a lasting fix.

If you take the wastegates and plop them in a 1 gallon can of berrymans carb dip for 4+ days it will soften up the exhaust deposits and you can wire brush the bore, and actuate the wastegate to work the residue out. (The 4+ days is a real thing, just a couple days won’t soften the deposits enough).

After they are clean and moving freely, apply a couple drops of mouse milk to the shafts, this will act as a carrying agent for the loctite LB8507 (2400* aerosol anti seize). Spray the loctite on the shaft/bearing bore, you can actually see it wick in and start to run inside the wastegate... letting you know it’s fully penetrating the area between shaft/bore.

If you want to disconnect the wastegate arms and add a couple of drops of mouse milk/LB8507 (then actuate the levers by hand to work it in) at oil changes it would be extra protection.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 11 May 2021, 00:05 
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Joined: 08/09/11
Posts: 1068
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Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
So ‘bout how often should one plan to do this? I don’t see any log entries on mine for pulling wastegates for over 500 hours since the engine overhaul. After I bought it, it made it another 80 before it started to get annoying so I see them lasting 15 years and 600 hours. Probably a question for AAC, Joel, or other Aerostar shop, but Is that normal? Or is the effort trying to mouse milk life into high time parts? I don’t mind lubricating and mx, but “overhaul in a can” has never worked for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 11 May 2021, 00:12 
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Joined: 11/25/16
Posts: 1334
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Location: CNC3
Aircraft: AEST
Bruce one of most used cures is to clean the wastegates with Berryman's carb cleaner and then lube them with a nickel based lubricant.

Fwiw Mouse Milk flashes off at low temps.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 11 May 2021, 14:59 
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Joined: 08/18/11
Posts: 309
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Company: American Aviation, Inc.
Location: Hayden Lake, ID
Aircraft: C90,340,PA31T,PC-12
So I work at American Aviation Inc. as a salesman for various performance modifications and I am also part owner in Aerostar Aircraft Corp. I have years of experience in working on Aerostars and have often consulted with John our customer service representative about Aerostar problems in the field. We often get calls from frustrated owners who have “done everything” and still have a problem they just can’t solve. In one case, John and I decided to start over and make sure he really rigged the waste gates properly. In frustration the mechanic/owner decided to send a video of the procedure. I asked John if he saw what I just saw in the video and he said “Yea he isn’t preloading the waste gate at all.” I said, “Yes he is leaving the rod end one half-hole short of the waste gate arm not one half-hole past the waste gate arm. The owner test flew the airplane and sent this email:

Good Evening Guys,

Today I flew the airplane after rigging both wastegates as we discussed on the phone. There was a fair amount of adjustment needed on both engines to be rigged like we discussed. Well, all I can say is “Bingo”! We only made it to 17,000’ today due to ATC, but I was able to make the 40” at 2500 RPM that I was able to make with the wastegates tied closed.

So my point is, it is not always the airplane's at fault. These airplanes are forty years old and who knows what has been done over the years. Sometimes you just have to assume nothing and just start at the beginning to solve a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 11 May 2021, 16:07 
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Joined: 01/23/18
Posts: 66
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Aircraft: Aerostar
To add to Jim Christy’s post:

1. Jim and the crew at AAC are a first class operation.
They are very good at trouble shooting and at fixing what the find.
I am always happy to put in a plug for AAC.

2. There is really no way to be nice about this: Not everyone who holds themselves out as an Aerostar expert is.

3. If you own an Aerostar or are interested in Aerostars I recommend joining the Aerostar-Forum(.com).

:bud:

Forrest


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 11 May 2021, 17:17 
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Joined: 08/09/11
Posts: 1068
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Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
Username Protected wrote:
To add to Jim Christy’s post:

1. Jim and the crew at AAC are a first class operation.
They are very good at trouble shooting and at fixing what the find.
I am always happy to put in a plug for AAC.

....


No question. The support is fantastic. Nice people too. :cheers:


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 12 May 2021, 03:06 
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Joined: 01/05/11
Posts: 217
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Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600
Username Protected wrote:
So I work at American Aviation Inc. as a salesman for various performance modifications and I am also part owner in Aerostar Aircraft Corp. I have years of experience in working on Aerostars and have often consulted with John our customer service representative about Aerostar problems in the field. We often get calls from frustrated owners who have “done everything” and still have a problem they just can’t solve. In one case, John and I decided to start over and make sure he really rigged the waste gates properly. In frustration the mechanic/owner decided to send a video of the procedure. I asked John if he saw what I just saw in the video and he said “Yea he isn’t preloading the waste gate at all.” I said, “Yes he is leaving the rod end one half-hole short of the waste gate arm not one half-hole past the waste gate arm. The owner test flew the airplane and sent this email:

Good Evening Guys,

Today I flew the airplane after rigging both wastegates as we discussed on the phone. There was a fair amount of adjustment needed on both engines to be rigged like we discussed. Well, all I can say is “Bingo”! We only made it to 17,000’ today due to ATC, but I was able to make the 40” at 2500 RPM that I was able to make with the wastegates tied closed.

So my point is, it is not always the airplane's at fault. These airplanes are forty years old and who knows what has been done over the years. Sometimes you just have to assume nothing and just start at the beginning to solve a problem.


...and that is it in a nut shell...


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 15 May 2021, 14:40 
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Joined: 02/17/18
Posts: 11
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Company: Controlled Fusion Inc.
Location: Coto de Caza, CA
Aircraft: Aerostar 601p N2DX
I agree AAC is an amazing asset for us Aerostar Drivers!

I had a somewhat same experience with the waste gate rigging - my mechanic rigged the waste gates as he thought fit. However I was still dealing with MP loss into the flight levels. So I spoke with John and he sent over the proper rigging sheet and instructions of how to "properly" rig the waste gates. I decided to watch my mechanic, who didn't preload the waste gates and I nicely corrected him with the Instructions.

If you follow instructions to the T.... Guess What? Your turbos will work properly!


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2021, 23:14 
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Joined: 11/25/19
Posts: 52
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Aircraft: Aerostar 601P
I currently have long props on my intercooled 601P, interested in the short props for a quieter cabin. Is there much performance loss/gain with the shorter props? How much quieter are they?

I just had my long props redone and one new hub installed (non-AD). Kinda regret I didn’t explore the short prop thing before dropping 20,000$ on the long props.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2021, 00:01 
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Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 60
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Location: Corsicana, TX
Aircraft: Aerostar 601P
I have the short props on my intercooled 601P. They are supposed to add about 10 hp per side due to the higher max rpm. Some people say the long props pull harder on takeoff roll due to the higher low pitch stop setting and are more efficient, therefore faster in cruise.

I would say that the short props are still pretty loud and it is hard to compare the power difference. I am not sure it is worth replacing relatively new props. I would put my money to the best noise canceling headphones you can find.

It is worth mentioning that most of the folks who have MT props seem to love them. They are expensive and there are some mixed reviews on customer support, however.

_________________
Joel Champlin, ATP


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2021, 17:51 
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Joined: 08/30/13
Posts: 388
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Location: KPGD
Aircraft: Aerostar 601P/680
I had the choice to get short props when I overhauled my long props last year, price delta was the same. I stuck with the long props for the performance. I’ve flown every engine and prop combination, long props are better for performance but the noise level difference is quite a lot. You can talk at a normal level with short props and kinda need to yell with long props.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2021, 18:44 
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Joined: 11/22/08
Posts: 2129
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Company: USAF Propulsion Laboratory
Location: Dayton, OH
Aircraft: PA24, Aerostar 680
And the world speed record was done with long props. So there is that.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2021, 08:18 
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Joined: 12/02/15
Posts: 229
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Location: Red Bank NJ
Aircraft: Aerostar600 A
Short props are also less likely to get damaged from ground litter


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