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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2017, 23:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
Jason,

Who taught you to configure for landing (40 deg flaps) at the FAF?

:scratch:


No one.... And I never suggested that. I suggested meeting the FAA's recommended Stabilized Approach Criteria, which has nothing to do with the FAF. I'm not at Flap's 40 in the Aerostar at the FAF, and I'm not at Flaps 40 in any Boeing/MD that I've flown at the FAF either...

Jason


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2017, 08:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
Some of you really need to ready what the FAA considers "Stabilized Approach Criteria" and give some consideration to how it pertains to flying the Aerostar. It might be an easy airplane to fly, but you can't fly it like a 172....

Jason


Forrest,

I understand exactly what Jason is "suggesting": we are all neophytes and don't understand the concept of "stabilized approach", that he has a better way, and he's flown Boeings so he possesses the superior knowledge.

Now, he'g going to :ahhh: explaining what he "really meant"

Run Jason run.

Jgreen

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2017, 08:36 
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Jason,

Define stabilized approach then; and how you would implement in the Aerostar; from IAF, to FAF to landing, and then repeat for VFR pattern.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2017, 12:40 
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https://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefin ... _16-11.pdf

:scratch:

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Forrest

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2017, 13:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
https://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2016/media/SE_Topic_16-11.pdf

:scratch:



Right..... so in other words "What Jason Said".


:D


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2017, 20:05 
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Anyone have a photo of speedbrakes on an Aerostar

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2017, 21:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
Anyone have a photo of speedbrakes on an Aerostar


No pics, but here are the ones I had as an under wing deployment, they were installed by a previous owner:
https://www.preciseflight.com/general-a ... eedbrakes/

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2017, 22:19 
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Unfortunately I have no pics but my airplane used to have speedbrakes that were Powerpac spoilers. They are hydraulic and activated through the existing system. For reasons that I do not know they were removed and the skins replaced. I still have all the hydraulics in place.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2017, 22:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
Jason,

Define stabilized approach then; and how you would implement in the Aerostar; from IAF, to FAF to landing, and then repeat for VFR pattern.

Tim


Maybe Jason is taking a break or he's out earning a check, so I'll jump in here with my $0.02:

I don't think Jason is suggesting anything about how anyone flies or should fly their Aerostar. He's simply offering up what the airlines have learned to be the single most effective tool to result in fewer landing mishaps. My airline's defined Stabilized Approach Criteria: [text in brackets are my comments]

*Gate is 1,000 ft IMC or 500 ft VMC [you can make it anything you want, i.e. 800 and 400 or even 600 and 300]
*Final landing configuration
*Power stable at setting appropriate for conditions
*Descent angle and rate appropriate for approach being flown
*Vertical and lateral displacement within tolerances [suggest 1/3 dot lateral and 1/2 dot vertical for ILS, can vary but should be established for your personal ops]
*Sink rate no greater than 1,000 fpm [can be greater if appropriate for conditions and previously briefed. For example 3.5 degree glidepath and 10 kt tailwind.]
*Airspeed within +10/-5 of target. Momentary deviations allowed if immediately corrected, i.e. turbulence.

If you're not stable at the gate or become unstable after the gate, a go-around is required.

Clearly there are some things a transport can do that the A* cannot. Although we do retract some flaps on a go-around the transport is more than capable of climbing in the landing configuration. It's called "landing climb" in certification. And although briefing acceptable exceptions is designed for multiple crewmembers, we can still brief ourselves on any exceptions. We already brief ourselves for every phase of flight anyway, even if we don't know it.

I'm just throwing this out there as a starting place or template. I'm not suggesting the Aerostar should be flown this way or that the airlines know more about how to fly it than you all do. I do think Jason is currently flying one, though. I have not flown one since 1999 and I don't recall enough about it to make any recommendations. I do remember my retort to the sideline critics of it: "you just have to fly it like a jet."

I think the best way to apply this would be to just set out what our limits are before hand and apply them uniformly to every flight. If conditions warrant, we can amend them, but it should be a conscious process and not done on the fly in order to accommodate a failure to meet the original target. We all already do this anyway, but if we codify it for ourselves and make it a firm red line then it helps to battle the tendency to grade ourselves on the curve when we get a little sloppy or conditions don't line up quite like we expected.

I will tell you this: the airlines have invested squillions of dollars studying this. Not because they are good corporate citizens and like to contribute to safety, but because landing mishaps are extremely expensive. And no one hates to part with a buck more than a m_______ f_______ airline!

OK. There's my $0.02. Let the arrows fly. I always learn a lot in these discussions.

Stew


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2017, 22:54 
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I have precise flight (brass knuckles) on my Columbia. I don't use them as much as I used to now that I am SO GOOD AT SPEED CONTROL.
They are very useful when mixing up with the big boys as I can cross FAF at 160+ and still land on numbers at 65ish.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 13 Aug 2017, 00:43 
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Location: Red Deer, Alberta (CRE5/CYQF)
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Username Protected wrote:
I have precise flight (brass knuckles) on my Columbia. I don't use them as much as I used to now that I am SO GOOD AT SPEED CONTROL.
They are very useful when mixing up with the big boys as I can cross FAF at 160+ and still land on numbers at 65ish.

Not really needed on an Aerostar. Flaps 40 is like putting the brakes on. 160+ at the FAF and dump full flaps and you will need to add power to make it to the runway.

Coming from a Mooney which just would not slow down unless you managed the speed/decent properly I understand you questions/comments. They simply don't apply to an Aerostar. :cheers:

Glenn


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 13 Aug 2017, 08:48 
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The September Flying issue has a report on the new Cessna 206 turbo. They have upped the gross for a useful of 1500# :bugeye: .

The point here is that they list a 161 knot cruise, no altitude given, with a 20 gph fuel burn.

Today, I'm planning on shooting some approaches, and I'm curious what my fuel burn will be pulled back to 160 knots or so at maybe 8,000'.

I'll post a pic for a talking point. :peace:

Jgreen

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 13 Aug 2017, 17:42 
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Short flight. Approaching thunderstorms put me back in the hangar, but I got 160 true @ 20gph @ 3500'. That should put me at 168 or so at 8,000. I was at peak EGT and the TIT's were only about 1540.

The down side is no pressurization below 22" and this was at 20".

Jgreen

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2017, 13:02 
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Username Protected wrote:

Maybe Jason is taking a break or he's out earning a check, so I'll jump in here with my $0.02:

I don't think Jason is suggesting anything about how anyone flies or should fly their Aerostar. He's simply offering up what the airlines have learned to be the single most effective tool to result in fewer landing mishaps. My airline's defined Stabilized Approach Criteria: [text in brackets are my comments]


You are exactly right Stew, on both accounts.. I'll respond later this week when I have more than two seconds to write my thoughts..

Jason


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2017, 13:26 
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Joined: 05/26/13
Posts: 438
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Aircraft: Aerostar, SR22,RV8,
Username Protected wrote:
I have precise flight (brass knuckles) on my Columbia. I don't use them as much as I used to now that I am SO GOOD AT SPEED CONTROL.
They are very useful when mixing up with the big boys as I can cross FAF at 160+ and still land on numbers at 65ish.

Not really needed on an Aerostar. Flaps 40 is like putting the brakes on. 160+ at the FAF and dump full flaps and you will need to add power to make it to the runway.

Coming from a Mooney which just would not slow down unless you managed the speed/decent properly I understand you questions/comments. They simply don't apply to an Aerostar. :cheers:

Glenn


What Glenn said.

There are certainly situations where the speed brakes might be useful, but in four months now and probably 60 hours I've wanted them much less than I would on our Cirrus.

Yesterday, approach kept me at 5000' (4800' AGL) until clearing me for the visual approach to my home airport less than a mile from the field. I had already been working the power back for a few minutes and was indicating about 160 knots. As soon as I got the clearance I added flaps 20, which got me to about 140 indicated where I dropped the gear and flaps 30.

Turned away from the airport and made a descending turn and rolled out on a wide 45 entry at 1200 feet or so, airspeed never got above about 145 in spite of the 1500+fpm descent. Beautiful VFR, and the wife was videotaping outside, dog was happy, no drama.

Added enough power to maintain level at 120-125 knots, flaps 40 after rolling out on final, crossed threshold at probably 100 knots, rolled to the end with no braking (3800') turned off at a slow walk.

Most importantly, it was very smooth and very low workload. No big trim changes, no crazy maneuvering, the airplane just does what you ask of it.

I've always been fond of barons for their hand flying feel, but this airplane is even nicer.

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