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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 16:01 
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Joined: 12/02/15
Posts: 377
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Location: KBLM KAPF
Aircraft: Aerostar600A
Username Protected wrote:
They guy south of Cleveland, OH worked on the 601 Was supposed to be the best in the country . Put several wrong pats on it & is out of business .

Who?


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 16:01 
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Joined: 12/02/15
Posts: 377
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Location: KBLM KAPF
Aircraft: Aerostar600A
Username Protected wrote:
They guy south of Cleveland, OH worked on the 601 Was supposed to be the best in the country . Put several wrong pats on it & is out of business .

Who?


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 16:12 
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Joined: 11/08/13
Posts: 1914
Post Likes: +1167
Location: KCRQ
Aircraft: Breeezy, 182,601P
100% of my serious maintenance and all my annuals have been at the flight shop.

As for my present problem:
The flight shop used to send turbo controllers to the overhaul place in Oklahoma.
Recently they seem to have lost the recipe as all the ones coming out of there have similar issues to my unit. (The one that is bad is from OK with <120hrs on it. its never been completely correct since the day it was installed.)

Aerostar aircraft will overhaul one for you, but its $2860 vs $600 from the place in Oklahoma. I'm told that Aerostar will also retag the unit as machen making it impossible for anyone else to ever work on it again :-(

If you want details on how the turbo controller is set up and what is inside...
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 611711.pdf
Is the appropriate patent and it has a cutaway drawing that is VERY similar to the RayJay RJ8007-3.

I'll probably just bite the the bullet and send Aerostar 3AMU when they once again have units available. (They are currently out of diaphragms) Dead cores are readily available on Ebay for $400 or less...

Its not beyond the realm of the possible to setup a test bench and identify the actual failure.

Looking at patent Fig 2...and trying to figure out what might be failing...
Possibilities are
-58 seal surface. (The dead spare unit I have has problems with this face)
-72 diaphragm.
-53 seal plate (actually shaft seal in 53.) There is evidence of oil on the top of diaphragm -72 in my dead unit. So if the shaft seal is bad your going to leak high pressure oil into the upper diaphragm chamber, likely changing the dynamics of the system.
-66 the sealed bellows reference. (cracks or leaks in this will render the absolute reference setting suspect.)

I have a close friend that does engineering development for regulators and valves for industry. He has all the test benches and equipment needed to set up a proper test bench. I'm temped to spend some time in his shop developing a test procedure for the unit so I can identify working/non-working units and identify the specific failed item
from the list above so maybe the $600 overhaul in OK will work once again...

Or even take advantage of 21.303 and figure out how to fabricate/or acquire an identical replacement for the failed part. The only thing I think would be close to impossible to fabricate is the sealed reference bellows #-66

If it were an experimental aircraft I'd have already replaced the entire dammed system with electronically driven wastegates.
Alas I think that would cost > $100K to get the STC for that.
You can see that Tornado Alley tried to produce a certified electronic wastegate in 2009 and has had no public progress since...

To do it right it would be a software driven digital system that then pulls in all the
full flight qualification software QA requirements beyond just the getting the engine part certified. (I think the same issues that killed the GAMI pressure peak timed ignition project and the EPS 350HP electronically controlled diesel engine project that looked so promising for this aircraft.)

One could build a electrically controlled wastegate out of only analog electronics and sensors removing the software QA problem... alas I still think it would be well north of 50K to certify.

The flip side for all of this is life is short and how much time do I want to spend tilting at windmills...

(Edited for spelling typos etc..)


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 17:43 
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Joined: 01/05/11
Posts: 314
Post Likes: +226
Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
Username Protected wrote:
They guy south of Cleveland, OH worked on the 601 Was supposed to be the best in the country . Put several wrong pats on it & is out of business .

Who?

Castle Aviation I’m guessing. That being said, I’ve heard nothing but good things coming out of that group. He maintains a fleet of Aerostars. https://www.castleair.com/maintenance-1-1 and they’re not out of business by a long shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 18:26 
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Joined: 08/09/11
Posts: 1726
Post Likes: +2048
Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
Username Protected wrote:
100% of my serious maintenance and all my annuals have been at the flight shop.

As for my present problem:
The flight shop used to send turbo controllers to the overhaul place in Oklahoma.
Recently they seem to have lost the recipe as all the ones coming out of there have similar issues to my unit. (The one that is bad is from OK with <120hrs on it. its never been completely correct since the day it was installed.)

Aerostar aircraft will overhaul one for you, but its $2860 vs $600 from the place in Oklahoma. I'm told that Aerostar will also retag the unit as machen making it impossible for anyone else to ever work on it again :-(

If you want details on how the turbo controller is set up and what is inside...
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 611711.pdf
Is the appropriate patent and it has a cutaway drawing that is VERY similar to the RayJay RJ8007-3.

I'll probably just bite the the bullet and send Aerostar 3AMU when they once again have units available. (They are currently out of diaphragms) Dead cores are readily available on Ebay for $400 or less...

Its not beyond the realm of the possible to setup a test bench and identify the actual failure.

Looking at patent Fig 2...and trying to figure out what might be failing...
Possibilities are
-58 seal surface. (The dead spare unit I have has problems with this face)
-72 diaphragm.
-53 seal plate (actually shaft seal in 53.) There is evidence of oil on the top of diaphragm -72 in my dead unit. So if the shaft seal is bad your going to leak high pressure oil into the upper diaphragm chamber, likely changing the dynamics of the system.
-66 the sealed bellows reference. (cracks or leaks in this will render the absolute reference setting suspect.)

I have a close friend that does engineering development for regulators and valves for industry. He has all the test benches and equipment needed to set up a proper test bench. I'm temped to spend some time in his shop developing a test procedure for the unit so I can identify working/non-working units and identify the specific failed item
from the list above so maybe the $600 overhaul in OK will work once again...

Or even take advantage of 21.303 and figure out how to fabricate/or acquire an identical replacement for the failed part. The only thing I think would be close to impossible to fabricate is the sealed reference bellows #-66

If it were an experimental aircraft I'd have already replaced the entire dammed system with electronically driven wastegates.
Alas I think that would cost > $100K to get the STC for that.
You can see that Tornado Alley tried to produce a certified electronic wastegate in 2009 and has had no public progress since...

To do it right it would be a software driven digital system that then pulls in all the
full flight qualification software QA requirements beyond just the getting the engine part certified. (I think the same issues that killed the GAMI pressure peak timed ignition project and the EPS 350HP electronically controlled diesel engine project that looked so promising for this aircraft.)

One could build a electrically controlled wastegate out of only analog electronics and sensors removing the software QA problem... alas I still think it would be well north of 50K to certify.

The flip side for all of this is life is short and how much time do I want to spend tilting at windmills...

(Edited for spelling typos etc..)


$2860 for something that works vs. repeatedly spending $600 for something that’s trying to kill you? Seems like a no brainer and you could save all of the brain damage? Imho, the only way to operate these is to absolutely relish sending money to Aerostar and enjoy getting great support while you can.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 19:03 
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Joined: 11/08/13
Posts: 1914
Post Likes: +1167
Location: KCRQ
Aircraft: Breeezy, 182,601P
The real question if its $2860 and lasts 2000 hrs its a no brainer.
If its $2860 and lasts 4hrs like the last $7500 part kits I bought from Aerostar not such a good deal.(Engine driven A/C compressor kit, not turbo controller.)
Still pissed at the $5K and two+ weeks I spent straightening out a part that was obviously (in hind sight ) broken when it left Aerostar. Not to mention the truly atrocious engineering that went into the engine driven A/C kit. Ended up custom machining spacing washers for the cone pulley spacer because the ones Aerostar sent were both not flat and had no slot for the shaft key and there was absolutely no way to assemble the system that Aerostar sent without making the pulley crooked.

For the spacing shims I bought proper ground flat shim washers for the correct shaft size and had the key slot machined into the washer...

A/C compressor clutch was visibly defective compared to the replacement they sent.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 20:27 
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Joined: 08/09/11
Posts: 1726
Post Likes: +2048
Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
Sorry about your AC. That sounds frustrating.

I have experienced nothing but outstanding support from Aerostar along with untold value in terms of advice. Without AAC, there is no Aerostar.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 21:25 
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Joined: 11/08/13
Posts: 1914
Post Likes: +1167
Location: KCRQ
Aircraft: Breeezy, 182,601P
I understand the issues....
Aerostar needs make $ to stay in business to support the plane.
No one is building new Aerostars, at some point the size of the fleet won't support the business (we loose one or two a year).
As much as it would be awesome to see new planes, a new aerostar would
have to cost close to $2M.

The people that own aerostars want support for free.....
Clearly there is a line to walk here....

Given that, there have been a number of cases where I felt Aerostars rent seeking has been excessive.


Examples:
Killing the alternative windshield source.

Not stocking or supplying the flap position sensor, instead making one upgrade to a new much more expensive system.

Have you priced the aerostar expanded A/C duct? Its an 8 foot chunk of plastic that they used to charge a reasonable price for (3K) , now I think its something like 16K.

Charging $2860 to overhaul the turbo controller when the time and parts that go into it can't be more than 3hrs and $30.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 21:31 
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Joined: 08/09/11
Posts: 1726
Post Likes: +2048
Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
If you really understood the issues, you would only be thankful for the rent seeking. There is no one retiring rich on piston legacy aircraft support. It’s just that simple.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 21:51 
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Joined: 01/05/11
Posts: 314
Post Likes: +226
Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
Username Protected wrote:
I understand the issues....
Aerostar needs make $ to stay in business to support the plane.
No one is building new Aerostars, at some point the size of the fleet won't support the business (we loose one or two a year).
As much as it would be awesome to see new planes, a new aerostar would
have to cost close to $2M.

The people that own aerostars want support for free.....
Clearly there is a line to walk here....

Given that, there have been a number of cases where I felt Aerostars rent seeking has been excessive.


Examples:
Killing the alternative windshield source.

Not stocking or supplying the flap position sensor, instead making one upgrade to a new much more expensive system.

Have you priced the aerostar expanded A/C duct? Its an 8 foot chunk of plastic that they used to charge a reasonable price for (3K) , now I think its something like 16K.

Charging $2860 to overhaul the turbo controller when the time and parts that go into it can't be more than 3hrs and $30.

Paul, you clearly do not understand the issues. If you did you wouldn’t be making the statements you are making. Not everyone is entitled to own an Aerostar based on what they think the costs should be. You either pay the price, or, you don’t. You aren’t buying from Home Depot, or, Amazon where you can return at will. In addition, not all Aerostar shops are the same. Owning and Aerostar is a dance where you’re feet get stepped on now and then, but, you keep on dancing if you love the girl you’re with. In the end, you know there’s no one else out there like her. If you want a trophy wife go buy an MU2.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 22:05 
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Joined: 12/19/09
Posts: 330
Post Likes: +269
Company: Premier Bone and Joint
Location: Wyoming
Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
Username Protected wrote:
The only problem is the MU2 doesn’t even come close to looking, or, dancing like an Aerostar. More like Bertha Butt one of the Butt sisters.

Very true on the “dancing” part. The Mits flies like a large transport category aircraft.
As far as how it “looks” that’s pretty subjective. Some like the “mini-C-130” look of the Mits with its squat, muscular appearance. But I would agree that most would find the Aerostar more “sexy” (including my wife).
But my experience of owning first a 601-P/700 and now a -10 Mits short body for about the same amount of time (7-9 yrs), the dispatch reliability, weather penetrating capability and general “toughness” of the Mits is orders of magnitude better than the Aerostar. It is also much faster and lands shorter. And both were maintained by specialty shops throughout my ownership tenure.
As to my wife’s flying preference, she doesn’t even want to fly in the company King Airs any more because the ride and solid feel of the Mits is that much better. And she was with me in the Aerostar for most of our failures. After one particular trip with icing of the breather causing oil loss and engine shutdown, then the shower of sparks failed while trying to do recurrent training, and finally after fixing the other two issues, the autopilot failed on the way home, she said “it’s time to move on.” It’s the engines, and the systems. I understand why the turbine engines are so much better, but I don’t understand the systems, they are far more failure prone in the Aerostar (at least they were in the two that I owned). But yes, they fly very nice.

_________________
Thomas


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 22:11 
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Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6322
Post Likes: +5522
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
I really didn't have that much trouble with the systems in my Aerostar. Sure, the wastegates needed a little love, the air pumps tended to go pretty quick, but other than that, she was very reliable.

_________________
Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 22:18 
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Joined: 12/19/09
Posts: 330
Post Likes: +269
Company: Premier Bone and Joint
Location: Wyoming
Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
Username Protected wrote:
I understand the issues....
Aerostar needs make $ to stay in business to support the plane.
No one is building new Aerostars, at some point the size of the fleet won't support the business (we loose one or two a year).
As much as it would be awesome to see new planes, a new aerostar would
have to cost close to $2M.

The people that own aerostars want support for free.....
Clearly there is a line to walk here....

Given that, there have been a number of cases where I felt Aerostars rent seeking has been excessive.


Examples:
Killing the alternative windshield source.

Not stocking or supplying the flap position sensor, instead making one upgrade to a new much more expensive system.

Have you priced the aerostar expanded A/C duct? Its an 8 foot chunk of plastic that they used to charge a reasonable price for (3K) , now I think its something like 16K.

Charging $2860 to overhaul the turbo controller when the time and parts that go into it can't be more than 3hrs and $30.

Paul, you clearly do not understand the issues. If you did you wouldn’t be making the statements you are making. Not everyone is entitled to own an Aerostar based on what they think the costs should be. You either pay the price, or, you don’t. You aren’t buying from Home Depot, or, Amazon where you can return at will. In addition, not all Aerostar shops are the same. Owning and Aerostar is a dance where you’re feet get stepped on now and then, but, you keep on dancing if you love the girl you’re with. In the end, you know there’s no one else out there like her. If you want a trophy wife go buy an MU2.


The Mits isn’t much like a trophy wife. It is very low maintenance and (as previously mentioned) isn't considered very sexy by most people. They are more like the company employee who always shows up for work, does a fantastic job in any duty condition regardless of the weather, and never calls in sick. The “U” in MU-2 stands for “Utility” for a reason.
_________________
Thomas


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 22:31 
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Joined: 01/05/11
Posts: 314
Post Likes: +226
Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
Honestly Thomas, I’ve always liked the looks of the Mits including C-130’s. The Bertha comment is a little bit heavy handed. That being said, the allure of the Aerostar is intoxicating and I’m addicted.
Regarding system, these aircraft are mostly 50 plus years old. Mostly with original if not a mix of original and dated systems that have been patched together mostly by people who just don’t have a clue, or, give a damn. In a nut shell, entire systems must be replaced. Nothing should be kept. All parts, pieces, wires, hoses, nuts, bolts, rivets, lines, actuators, all moving surface motors, pumps, valves, bell crank's, engines, props etc. should all be replaced. All Machen upgrades should be installed to the extent that level of performance is desired. If you want an airplane that is as close to bullet proof as possible that is the path that must be followed. Replace everything with new and you will be very happy and very poor. But, you will be very happy. Money flies fast, however, it will never fly as fast and as sweet as an Aerostar.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 22:39 
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Joined: 01/05/11
Posts: 314
Post Likes: +226
Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
In addition, I get a little defensive when people dump on Aerostar Corporation. I have spent well over a half a million over the years with Aerostar and have never had a bad experience. For me their products have been nothing short of top notch. That being said, it does matter who is installing the product. Quite frankly, there are very few people who really know what they are doing. Seek them out and you will be happy.
I have had my fair share of experiences with the secondary markets. No thanks. I go straight to Aerostar for everything I need that they supply. I have never been let down.


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