25 Apr 2024, 13:41 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Aerostars Posted: 25 May 2022, 23:34 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6359 Post Likes: +5544 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote: In the Aerostar maintenance school they suggest only extending the gear in straight and level flight, the doors are so long that the airflow really puts stress on them.in a bank. We often find cracks in the main Leg doors and this is one of the causes. That's what I was taught as well and practiced.
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: Aerostars Posted: 26 May 2022, 00:13 |
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Joined: 02/04/10 Posts: 1521 Post Likes: +2666 Company: Northern Aviation, LLC
Aircraft: C45H, Aerostar, T28B
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Username Protected wrote: In the Aerostar maintenance school they suggest only extending the gear in straight and level flight, the doors are so long that the airflow really puts stress on them.in a bank. We often find cracks in the main Leg doors and this is one of the causes. More important to make sure the ball is centered, even a slight yaw will put an unwanted load on the doors. Straight and level doesn’t hurt, but being coordinated is key. Jeff
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Post subject: Re: Aerostars Posted: 26 May 2022, 11:06 |
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Joined: 01/05/11 Posts: 314 Post Likes: +226
Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
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Username Protected wrote: NIL: On my very 1st flight in my A* , with an instructor, I promptly broke the gear door bellcrank on the second pattern.
Expensive lesson, but VERY convincing ! Yep, same here, but, without the instructor. First flight solo after instruction. Slow, late, coordinated and level. Never had a problem since.
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Post subject: Re: Aerostars Posted: 29 May 2022, 08:45 |
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Joined: 01/23/18 Posts: 629 Post Likes: +907
Aircraft: Aerostar
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https://www.airpowerinc.com/renpl-rt8554 Rough numbers: $100/Hr (assuming 1800 hr TBO) Plane is back from annual inspection. Bill $42,000 /200 hours $210/hr That number included the prop overhauls but I didn’t do any avionics work/updates this year, bottom line: there is always going to be something (and prop shop says that next time I’m going to need new blades ) Regular maintenance and repairs throughout the year about $40K -$200/hr Hanger: $6000/YR - $30/HR Insurance for 1MM smooth and $225K hull $15,000/yr -$75/hr XM/Iridium/Chart Subscriptions - $7K - $35/hr Did props this year (@7 yrs) $16/k + labor and ship - $15/hr $25/hr for paint and interior every 15 years (3000hrs) ($45K + 30K - probably low numbers) Figure ten hours a year of IFR/Night proficiency work: 30 gal /hr x $7.00/gal x 10 hours -$2100/200hrs - $11/HR Based on my calculations: $701/HR This number doesn’t place any value on what the plane might be worth or would cost to purchase…. I leave that math to prospective owners… Could any of these numbers be lower? I’m skeptical—- Forgo hanger and paint and interior are going to degrade faster Self insure for hull…. That mean YOU are taking the risk of damage or loss… In my opinion that is trading the certainty of an insurance bill for the possibility of a much larger bill if you have a bad day. You may save money, or you may just be trading smaller bills for one large bill. Exceed TBO—- That is a way to save money, if the engine holds together for those extra hours. IMO those extra hours should be viewed as a happy bonus and not counted on for budget purposes. What I think is interesting about these numbers is that at 200 hours/year, fixed, or per year, costs are a lot less than 1/2 the total cost of ownership. The other thing is, while not insignificant, the cost of getting the engines reman’d is only about 1/10th of the total (including fuel) cost of operation. Bottom line: Over the life of the engines, the purchase price of the aircraft (or the cost of a pair of reman’d engines) is about 1/10 of the cost of ownership. When asked, I’m sticking with “$750/hr plus fuel” as my answer. And that figure is based on today’s prices not the actual cost at the time the work has to be done. And last time I bought gas (FS in Gainesville FL) it was over $7.50/gal! But, Friday I was @ FL240, enroute to Vero Beach, well off shore, watching a line of thunderstorms to my West and appreciating the reality that in all of human history there are (and have been) only a few folks who get to have this experience. Attachment: 17BCCC41-D225-4CF3-AF90-32C82CBBD070.png Finally, soap box: Other complex twins are going to have the same level of operating cost and these numbers are on a well used and well maintained aircraft. The cost of bringing a (any) derelict or neglected complex twin up to the standard of my Aerostar is going to be far more costly. In other words: Cheap to buy doesn’t equal cheap to own! Have a great weekend and if you haven’t gone yet, go to TG2!
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Post subject: Re: Aerostars Posted: 29 May 2022, 09:07 |
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Joined: 10/18/11 Posts: 1031 Post Likes: +587
Aircraft: Seabee Aerostar 700
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I don't fly as much as you but my experience shows numbers similar to yours. I usually figure about $650 per hour with fuel but I don't put in some of the long term maintenance reserves.
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Post subject: Re: Aerostars Posted: 29 May 2022, 19:46 |
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Joined: 11/25/19 Posts: 176 Post Likes: +85
Aircraft: Aerostar 601P, AS350
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Username Protected wrote: https://www.airpowerinc.com/renpl-rt8554 Rough numbers: $100/Hr (assuming 1800 hr TBO) Plane is back from annual inspection. Bill $42,000 /200 hours $210/hr That number included the prop overhauls but I didn’t do any avionics work/updates this year, bottom line: there is always going to be something (and prop shop says that next time I’m going to need new blades ) Regular maintenance and repairs throughout the year about $40K -$200/hr Hanger: $6000/YR - $30/HR Insurance for 1MM smooth and $225K hull $15,000/yr -$75/hr XM/Iridium/Chart Subscriptions - $7K - $35/hr Did props this year (@7 yrs) $16/k + labor and ship - $15/hr $25/hr for paint and interior every 15 years (3000hrs) ($45K + 30K - probably low numbers) Figure ten hours a year of IFR/Night proficiency work: 30 gal /hr x $7.00/gal x 10 hours -$2100/200hrs - $11/HR Based on my calculations: $701/HR This number doesn’t place any value on what the plane might be worth or would cost to purchase…. I leave that math to prospective owners… Could any of these numbers be lower? I’m skeptical—- Forgo hanger and paint and interior are going to degrade faster Self insure for hull…. That mean YOU are taking the risk of damage or loss… In my opinion that is trading the certainty of an insurance bill for the possibility of a much larger bill if you have a bad day. You may save money, or you may just be trading smaller bills for one large bill. Exceed TBO—- That is a way to save money, if the engine holds together for those extra hours. IMO those extra hours should be viewed as a happy bonus and not counted on for budget purposes. What I think is interesting about these numbers is that at 200 hours/year, fixed, or per year, costs are a lot less than 1/2 the total cost of ownership. The other thing is, while not insignificant, the cost of getting the engines reman’d is only about 1/10th of the total (including fuel) cost of operation. Bottom line: Over the life of the engines, the purchase price of the aircraft (or the cost of a pair of reman’d engines) is about 1/10 of the cost of ownership. When asked, I’m sticking with “$750/hr plus fuel” as my answer. And that figure is based on today’s prices not the actual cost at the time the work has to be done. And last time I bought gas (FS in Gainesville FL) it was over $7.50/gal! But, Friday I was @ FL240, enroute to Vero Beach, well off shore, watching a line of thunderstorms to my West and appreciating the reality that in all of human history there are (and have been) only a few folks who get to have this experience. Attachment: 17BCCC41-D225-4CF3-AF90-32C82CBBD070.png Finally, soap box: Other complex twins are going to have the same level of operating cost and these numbers are on a well used and well maintained aircraft. The cost of bringing a (any) derelict or neglected complex twin up to the standard of my Aerostar is going to be far more costly. In other words: Cheap to buy doesn’t equal cheap to own! Have a great weekend and if you haven’t gone yet, go to TG2! Forrest, sent you a PM
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Post subject: Re: Aerostars Posted: 30 May 2022, 09:11 |
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Joined: 02/06/18 Posts: 1074 Post Likes: +1154
Aircraft: Piper PA-32R 300
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Username Protected wrote: https://www.airpowerinc.com/renpl-rt8554 Rough numbers: $100/Hr (assuming 1800 hr TBO) Plane is back from annual inspection. Bill $42,000 /200 hours $210/hr That number included the prop overhauls but I didn’t do any avionics work/updates this year, bottom line: there is always going to be something (and prop shop says that next time I’m going to need new blades ) Regular maintenance and repairs throughout the year about $40K -$200/hr Hanger: $6000/YR - $30/HR Insurance for 1MM smooth and $225K hull $15,000/yr -$75/hr XM/Iridium/Chart Subscriptions - $7K - $35/hr Did props this year (@7 yrs) $16/k + labor and ship - $15/hr $25/hr for paint and interior every 15 years (3000hrs) ($45K + 30K - probably low numbers) Figure ten hours a year of IFR/Night proficiency work: 30 gal /hr x $7.00/gal x 10 hours -$2100/200hrs - $11/HR Based on my calculations: $701/HR This number doesn’t place any value on what the plane might be worth or would cost to purchase…. I leave that math to prospective owners… Could any of these numbers be lower? I’m skeptical—- Forgo hanger and paint and interior are going to degrade faster Self insure for hull…. That mean YOU are taking the risk of damage or loss… In my opinion that is trading the certainty of an insurance bill for the possibility of a much larger bill if you have a bad day. You may save money, or you may just be trading smaller bills for one large bill. Exceed TBO—- That is a way to save money, if the engine holds together for those extra hours. IMO those extra hours should be viewed as a happy bonus and not counted on for budget purposes. What I think is interesting about these numbers is that at 200 hours/year, fixed, or per year, costs are a lot less than 1/2 the total cost of ownership. The other thing is, while not insignificant, the cost of getting the engines reman’d is only about 1/10th of the total (including fuel) cost of operation. Bottom line: Over the life of the engines, the purchase price of the aircraft (or the cost of a pair of reman’d engines) is about 1/10 of the cost of ownership. When asked, I’m sticking with “$750/hr plus fuel” as my answer. And that figure is based on today’s prices not the actual cost at the time the work has to be done. And last time I bought gas (FS in Gainesville FL) it was over $7.50/gal! But, Friday I was @ FL240, enroute to Vero Beach, well off shore, watching a line of thunderstorms to my West and appreciating the reality that in all of human history there are (and have been) only a few folks who get to have this experience. Attachment: 17BCCC41-D225-4CF3-AF90-32C82CBBD070.png Finally, soap box: Other complex twins are going to have the same level of operating cost and these numbers are on a well used and well maintained aircraft. The cost of bringing a (any) derelict or neglected complex twin up to the standard of my Aerostar is going to be far more costly. In other words: Cheap to buy doesn’t equal cheap to own! Have a great weekend and if you haven’t gone yet, go to TG2! Everyday, It seems I am further and further away from owning one of these amazing rides. Hats off to those who pull it off.
_________________ Ron
"It rubs the lotion on it's skin"
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Post subject: Re: Aerostars Posted: 30 May 2022, 10:06 |
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Joined: 01/23/18 Posts: 629 Post Likes: +907
Aircraft: Aerostar
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Ron, Owning an Aerostar is cheaper than a serious cocaine habit and more socially acceptable (but not necessarily cheaper) than a mistress. There are lots of folks who manage to figure out how to afford one or the other (or both!), it comes down to priorities.
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Post subject: Re: Aerostars Posted: 01 Jun 2022, 11:57 |
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Joined: 01/17/21 Posts: 88 Post Likes: +42
Aircraft: C550
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+1 for no spreadsheet ever on a few things just enjoy.
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Post subject: Re: Aerostars Posted: 01 Jun 2022, 16:32 |
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Joined: 02/09/14 Posts: 211 Post Likes: +95
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Username Protected wrote: https://www.airpowerinc.com/renpl-rt8554 Rough numbers: Based on my calculations: $701/HR When asked, I’m sticking with “$750/hr plus fuel” as my answer. For fun, Forrest, I went back to my numbers from last year: an even three thousand gallons of fuel at an average of a little over $5 a gallon and total expenditures (maintenance, hangar, insurance, even a sim shop ICC BFR visit) of $50k. So figure total cost is triple the fuel burn. Granted my numbers don't include amortization for engine / prop / avionics / paint / interior overhaul. But they're triple the fuel burn. And fuel cost is one-third of my $500 / hour operating budget rather than an additional cost as you have it. I don't see how you get 50% more expensive on an hourly cost basis. AND you have to add in your fuel costs, another $150 / hour last year, $210 / hour this year with $7 gas, on top of it. You're really saying $900 - $960 / hour with reserves. It would be fun trying to spend that much but I'd run out of panel space and AAC options in no time. There's a reason most of the 600s ended up in fleet operations and these days have 6,000+ hours on the airframe. And it's not because they guzzle gas or are maintenance hangar queens. A $42,000 annual on top of $40,000 a year in regular maintenance and repairs? Who is your recommended AEST mechanic? I'm not swapping for a Brand B or Brand C or Brand P anytime soon.
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Post subject: Re: Aerostars Posted: 01 Jun 2022, 17:50 |
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Joined: 01/23/18 Posts: 629 Post Likes: +907
Aircraft: Aerostar
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There is a reason there is a STC to remove the turbos from 601s and it’s why no one used turbo charged Aerostars to haul checks.
I agree with your math.
$1K/HR + including fuel is in the ball park.
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