banner
banner

19 Jun 2021, 15:31 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 2222 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 02 May 2021, 23:37 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 08/09/11
Posts: 1068
Post Likes: +974
Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
Username Protected wrote:
Just thought I would Chime back in here...
Thank you all for your input and opinions. Separately I reached out to a Ryan Cox who provided some excellent feed back as well as a couple members here. The Performance charts provided here as well as by Jim Christy told the story, I found myself playing with numbers to try to "Make it work". Even with my typical light load that I do with the Twin Comanche with ease, the Accelerate-Stop distances where a couple hundred feet beyond what I was available. I started justifying, well if I have an engine loss and not enough braking distance that I can do a 20 to 30 degree turn at the end of the runway and take less of a drop off... STOP. As many have cited... its just a bad idea.
Unfortunately, it looks as though an Aerostar is not in the cards for me. Looks like I am actively in the market for at Seneca III. It makes me a little sad, but knowing that I can load the thing up and Acc/Stop in 2500 feet makes me happy.
The flight it the Seneca looks like it is going to be close in burn, but take a 15 minutes longer. I like to fly so...
The hunt begins. If anyone knows of a back of the hangar queen, Seneca III that is in full 80's motif, I may be a buyer. Ideally I am looking for a lowish time airplane that needs everything... hopefully that will keep the ticket cost down and New engines, full Dynon panel, paint and interior could be the order of the day (year).
No that I have decided to step away from the Aerostar acquisition, I am happy to share what the airplane I was primarily considering. It could be (already is) a nice aircraft for someone with a 1000+ feet more than I have to work with. 4 blade MT props, low time engines and a Garmin 750... if only.
https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... n-aircraft
Thank you all again for setting me straight. You can all cancel your life insurance quotes you may have received for me.

--mick
PA30 -N5MA
T67 & MO56


Mick - good decision. :thumbup: And, you’re in luck as I happen to have a friend with a 1981 Seneca III with a beautiful G600 panel and low time engines etc that seems like a much better deal than starting with a project. Paint and interior are kind of weak but that’s my favorite kind of plane. Let me know if you have interest. I need to list it and a really cool 58TC here soon.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 03 May 2021, 16:15 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 11/08/13
Posts: 1462
Post Likes: +728
Location: KCRQ
Aircraft: Breeezy, 182,601P
So I canceled a trip this weekend due to a mechanical.
While the aerostar is awesome, I've maintained this with no shortcuts...
and yet its stranded me twice and canceled yet another trip.

Left side with EVERYTHING new aka ~ 250hr Factory reman, new hoses, new turbos, new turbo controller etc...makes no boost pressure... previous flight had no flaws.

With the cowl off nothing obvious... waiting for a cheap inspection camera to arrive so I can look at wastegates and turbos without disassembling things...

very frustrated with the plane today.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 03 May 2021, 16:23 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 3807
Post Likes: +1398
Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Are the wastegate oil filters plugged (if installed)?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 07 May 2021, 02:16 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 12/18/12
Posts: 532
Post Likes: +227
Location: Europe
Aircraft: Aerostar 600A
Without a doubt, the turbo systems in the A* is the weak link. In fact, I would venture to wager that turbo related problems account for the vast majority of dispatch & reliability issues in the fleet.

_________________
A&P/IA


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 07 May 2021, 07:48 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 11/08/13
Posts: 1462
Post Likes: +728
Location: KCRQ
Aircraft: Breeezy, 182,601P
Looks like the problem was the flapper door in the airbox not sealing...

So I put an AN plug in the input line to the controller.
(This should force the actuator to full drive.)
1)I ran the engine (on the ground) and got no boost.


2)I tye wrapped an inspection camera in place to film the waste gate arms...

3)I tested the strength of the spring in the air door on the firewall airbox.
Left (bad)side seemed weaker than the right good side.
I walked back and forth left/right comparing the force to open the door about five times.
So the door got exercised a lot...

4)I ran up the engine again... I got boost, no configuration difference between test 1 and 4, just different result.

5)I removed the camera and I reattached the controller input line.

6)I test flew the aircraft boost was completely normal.


So many TC aircraft have no spring at all on the flapper door, relying solely on air pressure to keep it closed.
I'm really kind of surprised that it might have been the door.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 07 May 2021, 14:48 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 01/05/11
Posts: 217
Post Likes: +121
Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600
Username Protected wrote:
Without a doubt, the turbo systems in the A* is the weak link. In fact, I would venture to wager that turbo related problems account for the vast majority of dispatch & reliability issues in the fleet.

The turbo system is not the weak link. The weak link is the inconsistent, or, completely lack of maintenance of the turbo system as a whole. To many hands doing to many things that are not consistent with the required maintenance of the system is where the problem lies.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 07 May 2021, 15:26 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 3807
Post Likes: +1398
Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Username Protected wrote:
So many TC aircraft have no spring at all on the flapper door, relying solely on air pressure to keep it closed.
I'm really kind of surprised that it might have been the door.


Changing the spring in that flapper door is a pain in the a_ _. It's about a half day or more job to change the $0.50 spring. There is nothing I hated more on the Aerostar than removing the airboxes, for any reason.
Unsuspecting mechanics and pilots like to shove their finger in there and exceeds the limits of the tiny spring so that it slides out of place, which then caused the whole spring system to fail. Who doesn't like to play with the flapper door?

After spring replacement:
Attachment:
2020-06-29 17.03.47.jpg


Prior to spring replacement, the back side of the door:
Attachment:
2020-06-23 16.57.17 copy.jpg


That being said, I was never convinced that the door would stay open once there was some pressure in the airbox. Unless something jammed it open, or is didn't close evenly (it's in a slotted hole), it appeared to be relatively maintenance free.

I would still suspect a binding wastegate before that door. When I had mine, I had them on a 35 hour lubrication schedule (I had a 35 hour checklist that I did), but pretty much lubricated them any time the cowl was off.

My own personal opinion is that the wastegates on the Aerostar are the biggest weak link in the entire airplane. I spent more time tinkering, replacing rod ends, replacing crossover shafts, adjusting, lubricating, test flying, taking to multiple guru's including John and Jim at Aerostar and repeating with them than any other items on the airplane, in fact almost all other items combined.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 07 May 2021, 15:41 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 02/04/10
Posts: 1191
Post Likes: +1969
Company: Northern Aviation, LLC
Aircraft: C45H, Aerostar, T28B
Username Protected wrote:
Without a doubt, the turbo systems in the A* is the weak link. In fact, I would venture to wager that turbo related problems account for the vast majority of dispatch & reliability issues in the fleet.

Compared to most others, the A* turbo system is actually very simple and straight forward. It is essentially a 3' piece of pipe with 3 exhaust flanges with a turbo on the end; no bellows, flex couplings, etc., that are the bane of other more complex systems. Providing you have the bolt-on tail pipes there really isn't much to go wrong.

Now it is still a turbo, and that means more money and routine fiddling than an NA. There is no free lunch.

Jeff


Last edited on 07 May 2021, 21:55, edited 1 time in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 07 May 2021, 19:05 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 01/05/11
Posts: 217
Post Likes: +121
Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600
Username Protected wrote:
Without a doubt, the turbo systems in the A* is the weak link. In fact, I would venture to wager that turbo related problems account for the vast majority of dispatch & reliability issues in the fleet.

Compared to most others, the A* turbo system is actually very simple and straight forward. It is essentially a 3' piece of pipe with 3 exhaust flanges with a turbo on the end; no bellows, flex couplings, etc., that are the bane of other more complex systems. Providing you have the bolt-on tail pipes there really isn't much to go wrong.

Now it is still a turbo, and that means more money and routing fiddling than an NA. There is no free lunch.

Jeff
You got it... :thumbup:

Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 08 May 2021, 12:08 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 3807
Post Likes: +1398
Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Username Protected wrote:
Without a doubt, the turbo systems in the A* is the weak link. In fact, I would venture to wager that turbo related problems account for the vast majority of dispatch & reliability issues in the fleet.

Compared to most others, the A* turbo system is actually very simple and straight forward. It is essentially a 3' piece of pipe with 3 exhaust flanges with a turbo on the end; no bellows, flex couplings, etc., that are the bane of other more complex systems. Providing you have the bolt-on tail pipes there really isn't much to go wrong.

Now it is still a turbo, and that means more money and routine fiddling than an NA. There is no free lunch.

Jeff


Individually, most of the parts were reasonably simple. Together, getting and keeping them working in sync was a harder problem. Lack of previous maintenance (which I solved) took some time to catch up.

The wastegates were still my PITA. I tried multiple ways to keep them from sticking, and after five years of ownership never did find a good answer up to the point that I sold the airplane (for other reasons).

I still say it was one of the best airplanes I owned. I received comments everywhere I went. It truly was a "poor person's turboprop" from performance standpoint. If you could put two "mini 331's" on it, it would be almost the perfect airplane!

Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 08 May 2021, 12:47 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 08/09/11
Posts: 1068
Post Likes: +974
Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
Jason - Did you have AAC overhauled wastegates?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 08 May 2021, 13:29 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 3807
Post Likes: +1398
Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Username Protected wrote:
Jason - Did you have AAC overhauled wastegates?


They were from AAC before I bought the airplane...

I sent a video to John in parts and he said there was nothing wrong with them..


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 08 May 2021, 18:07 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 11/08/13
Posts: 1462
Post Likes: +728
Location: KCRQ
Aircraft: Breeezy, 182,601P
There is a collar on the actuator that can get sloppy cock and jam the actuator.
Is it possible that your wastegate stick was not actually the waste gate?
Or were they stuck once you disconnected the linkage...

(I've had Turbo and controller issues, and until now ~350 hrs) the waste gates have been trouble free...Also they are only getting lubed /mouse milked annually....
I may need to change that....


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 08 May 2021, 18:27 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 08/09/11
Posts: 1068
Post Likes: +974
Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
Username Protected wrote:
Jason - Did you have AAC overhauled wastegates?


They were from AAC before I bought the airplane...

I sent a video to John in parts and he said there was nothing wrong with them..


I wonder if there is a useful calendar/hour life where beyond they start to become an issue. Mine had about 600 hours and maybe 15 years from who knows what kind of quality service event - one would stick at the end of its travel (only when hot!) and cause issues. Lubing them with the nickel maybe fixed it for a couple hours. I figured it was time to go through them all at once and that seems to have worked but of course I only have 30 hours on them.

On the plus side, at least they aren’t bolted to the airframe with the exhaust tearing itself apart in between like some planes. ;)

Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 17:09 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 10/18/08
Posts: 950
Post Likes: +191
Aircraft: Aerostar 601p/700
The waste gates can be headache. Mousemilk lube and nickel help. Disconnecting the linkage and working them back and forth every oil change while spraying with mouse milk helps. The mouse milk doesn't come in a spray can so you need find one of the cans that you can put liquid in and charge with an air compressor or use the Preval(?) sprayer that has its own spray can that you can use with any liquid.

If you have trouble moving the arm by hand you can free it up with mouse milk and working it back and forth but it will stick again in a few hours. It will need overhaul or you will, be freeing it up every few hours.

If it is just a little stiff but you can easily move it, use mouse milk and work it back and forth until it snaps back by itself with the spring on the wastegate.

Despite all of that they still eventually stick and need overhaul. AAC is the only place I know of to overhaul them. It's not cheap and there are 4 of them, 2 on each engine. On the J2AB engine there may only 1 one on each engine, I don't know that variant. There was another outfit that overhauled them and cut and welded the arm of the wastegate. Don't let them overhaul it as the arm may break off after being welded.

Once overhauled if you spray them and work them back and forth with mouse milk every oil change and any time you remove the lower cowl you should be OK for a while. The other thing that can go bad are the rod ends. They get sloppy and need replacement. If there is play in them again you have to go to AAC to get new ones. They can be lubed with mouse milk also, not sure it does much to make them last longer.

There is a procedure that AAC has to adjust the wastgates. One pressurizes the actuators to 80PSI with oil pressure and then adjust the waste gates to close, the wastegate opposite the actuator gets adjusted a little longer that the one on the side of the actuator. The procedure spells this all out.

A lot of mechanics don't have the procedures and just start adjusting things hoping to to fix problems. That is wrong approach.

Start with waste gates. Then look at linkages. Then look for induction and airbox leaks. Then look at actuators. Then turbos. Finally look at controllers.

Also it is worth it to get the in line actuator filter kits from AAC. They filter the bits of carbon that can clog the actuator orfice. If you have these filters they should be cleaned every oil change. It takes 10 minutes to clean it.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 2222 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2021

.SCA.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.westsky.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.Davis_Aviation_85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.airpower-85x50.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.dshannon.jpg.
.greenwich-85x50-2020-08-10.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.southseas-85x50-2021.png.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.rtc-85x200.jpg.
.EagleFuelCellsTriple.jpg.
.echelon-85x50.png.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.methodseven-85x50.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.Flaremeter_85x50_v2.png.
.instar.jpg.
.garmin-85x200-2021-05-24.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.kingairdom.jpg.
.aspen-85x100.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.bkool-85x50-2014-08-04.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.dynon-85x50.jpg.
.Expert_Aircraft_Solution_85x50.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.Microkit_85x50.png.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.concorde.jpg.
.ps_engineering.gif.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.STLAir_85x50.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.McPeck_85x50.jpg.
.avionicssource-85x50.jpg.
.truecourse.jpg.
.jaair-85x100.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.avidyne-85x50-2017-11-22.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.SierraTrax_85x50.jpeg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.heartlandsm.jpg.