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19 Jun 2021, 14:10 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup (banner)



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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 20:26 
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Joined: 01/19/16
Posts: 1454
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Location: 13FA Earle Airpark FL/0A7 Hville NC
Aircraft: E33/152A/OV10/23-180
Username Protected wrote:
If we are going to add the Aero Commanders to the list then a good T-Bone needs to be there as well it will haul the load out of 3000’


Good and T-Bone is an oxymoron.

Tim



I am surprised that you were not hit with some -1s. Just goes to show you how cool T Bone drivers are. Seriously though, Twin Bos are one of the most capable, coolest and most enjoyable aircraft to fly or ride in that Beech ever built. So what if they are not real fast. No reason to shorten such a pleasurable experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 21:31 
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Posts: 2230
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Aircraft: Between Airplanes
Sometimes people forget that there are good reasons there are lots of airplane models. Lots of aerostar pilots love them, lots of Tbone pilots love them - they are just different optimizations.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 02:07 
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Joined: 03/11/17
Posts: 10
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Aircraft: PA30 Twin Comanche
Username Protected wrote:
The obvious point for a short strip on an Aerostar is which engine. I
Andy

For the sake of my inqiry, we are speaking specifically about the NA 600A. Nothing inflated or turbo'd
--mick


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 04:01 
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Joined: 01/05/11
Posts: 217
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Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600
Considering all other parameters I will operate out of a 3,000’ runway everyday all day. It’s just not that hard and that includes a personal safety margin. I’m sure you can operate a 600 out of less than 3,000,’ however, I’m am not comfortable with that.

Published accelerate stop for my 600, full gross, 20 degrees of flaps, 1,000 msl, (my home airport 5,000’+ runway) ISA is about 3,200.’ Never tried it and really don’t want to experiment with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 06:36 
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Joined: 01/23/18
Posts: 66
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Aircraft: Aerostar
Here is Mickey’s question:


“So the big question. Can the 600/600A safely be operated into and out of 3000 feet on a hot/humid MO summer day? It’s a hard 3000 feet with an NTSB report on either end if it exceeded. We don’t have fuel on the field so I would need to haul enough to get at least 30 mins with reserves for the 20% mission above, or carry enough for the full RT with the 80% mission (600 lbs going 650 nm).”

Can the 600/600A safely be operated into and out of 3000 feet on a hot/humid MO summer day?


Here’s my thinking:

1. Accelerate/Stop numbers were calculated using a new airplane (with new brakes) that weighed exactly what it was supposed to, flown by a guy with great proficiency and no distractions.
That isn’t me and I assume it isn’t going to be Mickey. Which means our performance is going to be worse than book numbers.

2. Lose power in one motor below 300’AGL, (and <120Kts or while gear and flaps are extended) and an Aerostar pilot is unlikely to be successful in avoiding whatever obstacles are at the end of Mickey’s runway. We don’t have accelerate and go numbers.

Could a light 600 on a cool day get stopped on the runway if the engine failed at 85 Kts?

Most likely yes.

But based on Mickey’s mission description: hot / higher GW ... an aborted (at 85 Kts) takeoff is going to put him off the end of the runway.

AND

The point where the flight can continue (the time (and location) until the plane is over 300’ and >120Kts with gear and flaps up) is going to be well past the end of his runway.

IMO it isn’t safe to create a situation where every take off from one’s home field exposes the plane and it’s occupants to a period of time where an off airport landing will be unavoidable.

All that said, a 600 Aerostar can be expected take off on less than 3,000’ of RW.



I’ve included charts from a 600 AFM.

Forrest


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 07:32 
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Joined: 12/02/15
Posts: 229
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Location: Red Bank NJ
Aircraft: Aerostar600 A
No question a long runway is far safer and more desirable especially for twin pistons but I must point out that a well known Piper dealer -Braden’s Flying service (N43)-sold Aerostars from his 1956 foot strip . :rock:


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 09:19 
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Joined: 01/05/11
Posts: 217
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Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600
I have the big brakes Forrest and I'm under 3,900 lbs. empty. The big brakes make a huge difference especially on a 600. 600s are considerably lighter than the P models especially the 700s. 700s run anywhere from 500 lbs. to 800 lbs. heavier than a 600 empty. That's a lot of momentum to stop.

I have no problem operating out of a 3,000' runway on a hot day full gross. Wing extension and winglets are huge help. That's something that is not reflected in the POH. Short wing 600s are flying rocks with wings. I remember very well what is was like before my conversion.

Add the 300 hp. short prop upgrade and your 600 is not even close to what a stock short wing 600 is.


Last edited on 30 Apr 2021, 09:34, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 09:24 
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Joined: 11/06/10
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Company: Looking
Location: 6B6 - Stow, Massachusetts
Aircraft: SR22
Username Protected wrote:
Good and T-Bone is an oxymoron.
Tim


I am surprised that you were not hit with some -1s. Just goes to show you how cool T Bone drivers are. Seriously though, Twin Bos are one of the most capable, coolest and most enjoyable aircraft to fly or ride in that Beech ever built. So what if they are not real fast. No reason to shorten such a pleasurable experience.


Norman,

Because most of the T-Bone owners on here know I have been around a long time on BT and I occasionally make cheeky comments. I normally put "flame suite on" or other such things to show I am poking fun at whomever.

Tim

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 10:26 
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Joined: 01/23/18
Posts: 66
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Aircraft: Aerostar
I went on Google maps for Braden Airpark.

Really flat, and I bet back in the day there was much less development in the area especially to the south.

Still, those guys had a lot more courage (or a lot less imagination) than me.

:cheers:

Forrest


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 10:39 
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Posts: 66
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Aircraft: Aerostar
Yesterday I did a trip to Gainesville, Fl.

Landed 25.

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2104/00973AD.PDF

It was in the 80s and winds were reported to be 170 @ 10.

Easily made the turn off at “C”

Departing late afternoon high 80s, 120 gallons of gas, just me.

Tower asked if I wanted 25, (much shorter taxi), I was tempted (I’ve departed 25 lots of time before), This time I decided to take the extra time and go with 29.

No regrets.

I was well past 3000’ before I rotated.

Could I have saved a few minutes and made it off 25?

Sure.

But I had a choice.

:angel:

Forrest


Last edited on 01 May 2021, 09:10, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 12:31 
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Joined: 02/09/18
Posts: 26
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Location: Brownsville TN
Aircraft: Aerostar 601P/700
Mickey,

Tom Cooke knows what he is talking about. You would want an Aerostar like his for your mission. I’m not sure you could find one for sale but you could upgrade a 600A to be like Tom Cooke’s plane. The 600A came from the factory with a shorter wing then the P-models which had 24” wing extensions.

The upgrades needed would be:
24” Wing Extensions plus winglets
Big Brakes (6 puck)
Short Props (to get 300 hp per side)

I don’t know much about Seneca performance but I would investigate Accelerate/Stop and Engine-Out performance of the Seneca compared to the unmodified 600A.

BTW – my previous aircraft was a 68 turbo twin Comanche.

_________________
Nearly all men can stand adversity. If you want to test his character, give him power!


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2021, 20:47 
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Joined: 05/12/18
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Aircraft: Rv9, Aerostar 600A
3500 ft GRASS.
Is there an accelerated stop table for grass?
I thought those tables were made with new planes in good conditions on asphalt or similar.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 01 May 2021, 18:16 
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Joined: 05/26/13
Posts: 324
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Aircraft: Aerostar, SR22,RV8
Username Protected wrote:
3500 ft GRASS.
Is there an accelerated stop table for grass?
I thought those tables were made with new planes in good conditions on asphalt or similar.


The problem with grass is that it's all different. Even the same runway won't be exactly the same every time. I've certainly seen POH "adjustments" such as "add 15% to the ground roll for dry grass" but I think they are at best an approximation, and at worst dangerous if you believe them for planning purposes.

I've landed on a -lot- of grass runways. I've never operated anything off of a grass runway that wouldn't have been comfortable on half as much pavement. This was easy to do since most of the airplanes I've operated off grass really barely need runways.

My policy would probably change if anyone were to give me a Pilatus PC24 however. Then I'd pay much more attention.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 02 May 2021, 15:15 
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Joined: 11/18/13
Posts: 381
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Location: F70
Aircraft: AEST601B S-211 B-777
That sounds super sketchy. My 601B is light, 4076 empty, and is turbocharged with the addition of the Machen inter cooler mod. Being a B model it has the longer wing too. I have gone in and out of 4000’ feet comfortably, but would not try 3000’. That would be outside the boundaries of any risk analysis for me despite what the POH numbers say.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 02 May 2021, 23:22 
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Joined: 03/11/17
Posts: 10
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Aircraft: PA30 Twin Comanche
Just thought I would Chime back in here...
Thank you all for your input and opinions. Separately I reached out to a Ryan Cox who provided some excellent feed back as well as a couple members here. The Performance charts provided here as well as by Jim Christy told the story, I found myself playing with numbers to try to "Make it work". Even with my typical light load that I do with the Twin Comanche with ease, the Accelerate-Stop distances where a couple hundred feet beyond what I was available. I started justifying, well if I have an engine loss and not enough braking distance that I can do a 20 to 30 degree turn at the end of the runway and take less of a drop off... STOP. As many have cited... its just a bad idea.
Unfortunately, it looks as though an Aerostar is not in the cards for me. Looks like I am actively in the market for at Seneca III. It makes me a little sad, but knowing that I can load the thing up and Acc/Stop in 2500 feet makes me happy.
The flight it the Seneca looks like it is going to be close in burn, but take a 15 minutes longer. I like to fly so...
The hunt begins. If anyone knows of a back of the hangar queen, Seneca III that is in full 80's motif, I may be a buyer. Ideally I am looking for a lowish time airplane that needs everything... hopefully that will keep the ticket cost down and New engines, full Dynon panel, paint and interior could be the order of the day (year).
No that I have decided to step away from the Aerostar acquisition, I am happy to share what the airplane I was primarily considering. It could be (already is) a nice aircraft for someone with a 1000+ feet more than I have to work with. 4 blade MT props, low time engines and a Garmin 750... if only.
https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... n-aircraft
Thank you all again for setting me straight. You can all cancel your life insurance quotes you may have received for me.

--mick
PA30 -N5MA
T67 & MO56


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