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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2018, 20:58 
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Tim, your experience with respect to the LOP power setting required to maintain TIT below limits was similar to what I saw in my 601-P-700. I’ll pass on a comment the engineers at GAMI told me regarding TIT...I don’t fully agree with this, but the guys at GAMI are a pretty astute group and they use their instrumented engine test bed to good effect so it’s not like they just make things up. When I asked them about the ramifications of low power LOP ops in a plane with low compression pistons causing higher TIT, he said: “The maximum allowable TIT is 1650, that’s already conservative. Some installations for that engine allow 1750. Pilots do stuff like this all the time, the limit is 1650, so they add a hundred degrees and think they are being conservative when the original limit was already conservative. Really they are just wasting fuel. The limit of 1650 means that the engine can operate all day long at 1650 and no damage will occur.”
I have always been told that if a redline temperature exists, it is an absolute maximum, and that “heat kills” so you should stay well below the max (say for CHT, TIT, ITT etc.)...but I have never actually been shown metallurgic data to back this up, so it may fall into the category of OWT...the folks at GAMI feel pretty strongly that running an Aerostar at 1650 TIT all the time is not harmful (I ran about 1580 on one engine and around 1605 on the other based on “lean find” ROP checks with the JPI.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2018, 21:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
Tim, your experience with respect to the LOP power setting required to maintain TIT below limits was similar to what I saw in my 601-P-700. I’ll pass on a comment the engineers at GAMI told me regarding TIT...I don’t fully agree with this, but the guys at GAMI are a pretty astute group and they use their instrumented engine test bed to good effect so it’s not like they just make things up. When I asked them about the ramifications of low power LOP ops in a plane with low compression pistons causing higher TIT, he said: “The maximum allowable TIT is 1650, that’s already conservative. Some installations for that engine allow 1750. Pilots do stuff like this all the time, the limit is 1650, so they add a hundred degrees and think they are being conservative when the original limit was already conservative. Really they are just wasting fuel. The limit of 1650 means that the engine can operate all day long at 1650 and no damage will occur.”
I have always been told that if a redline temperature exists, it is an absolute maximum, and that “heat kills” so you should stay well below the max (say for CHT, TIT, ITT etc.)...but I have never actually been shown metallurgic data to back this up, so it may fall into the category of OWT...the folks at GAMI feel pretty strongly that running an Aerostar at 1650 TIT all the time is not harmful (I ran about 1580 on one engine and around 1605 on the other based on “lean find” ROP checks with the JPI.


Agree. Due to the age of the probes, and the fact they were not calibrated, I always ran a little lower. Because of where the display was located, I ran 1600 in VMC, and 1550 in IMC; idea was I would check less often and not get "vertigo" by looking on the cabin wall to the right of the co-pilot.

I never had the concern about "babying the engines"

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2018, 08:10 
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Aircraft: 700P, F35, D17
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Mine burns a ton of fuel but it is still a lot of fun to fly. Came back this week from Midland, Texas to Houston, Texas and made well over 300kts over the ground with a 55 knot tail wind at 65% power.

What sort of fuel burns were you seeing for those speeds?


John,

My plane has U2A motors but is different from every other Aerostar because my intercoolers are behind the engine rather than below. In the naming nomenclature my plane is a factory 700P which is quite different from the rest of the fleet. In my plane at FL250 my TAS will be 255 knots according to Garmin's calculation. I can get 260 knots but only if I close the cowl flaps (my Aerostar is the only model with flaps). When I close the flaps the engine cylinder temps will break 400 degrees at that altitude and with the flaps open the highest will be 380. I run at 30 MP and 2200 RPM. At those numbers I run 24.0 GPH on the right motor and 23.0 GPH on the left motor

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2018, 11:43 
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Username Protected wrote:
In my plane at FL250 my TAS will be 255 knots according to Garmin's calculation. I run at 30 MP and 2200 RPM. At those numbers I run 24.0 GPH on the right motor and 23.0 GPH on the left motor

What climb profile (climb rate/IAS/GPH) do you typically fly to get to FL250?

Thanks,

John


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2018, 18:42 
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Aircraft: Piper Cheyenne II
Username Protected wrote:
In my plane at FL250 my TAS will be 255 knots according to Garmin's calculation. I run at 30 MP and 2200 RPM. At those numbers I run 24.0 GPH on the right motor and 23.0 GPH on the left motor

What climb profile (climb rate/IAS/GPH) do you typically fly to get to FL250?

Thanks,

John



John -

Eric's airplane is a Piper built 700P, as opposed to a 601P or a 602P converted to a Superstar 700, Super 700, etc. The U2A engine is not unique to the Piper 700P but among the things Piper did different was relocate the intercoolers above and behind the engines. Cowl flaps were used on this installation, and it and the Superstar II (which used the J2BD engine from a Navajo Chieftain) were the only Aerostars that had cowl flaps.

The U2A is significant because it was designed from the start to be a turbo-boosted high altitude engine. Machen used that engine for the Super 700, and I think Piper subsequently used it for the 700P (Jim - correct??)

NOTE: "Converted" or "Modified" has no negative connotation, in fact Machen, the people who came up with the STC's were / are all original Aerostar people from the Santa Maria days and are now the ones who own the Aerostar type certificate, having bought it from Piper.

My climb performance in my 601P / Super 700, which would be similar to Erics, was abut 1200 fpm using 155 KIAS up until around FL180-FL200, when it would trail of to about 800 -1000 fpm. typical times (including ATC step-climbs and vectors) to FL230 or so would be about 25 minutes and about 30 gallons total. I used 37" 2400 rpm and about 35 gph per side (with a better engine monitor than I had you could probably do as low as 33 gph per side).

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2018, 20:18 
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The Aerostar Owners website has some good information on model variants and upgrades. See http://aerostar-owners.com/aerostars.php - the first couple of articles in particular.

Regards
Richard


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2018, 02:05 
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The factory 700P aslo has the pitot tube down on the nose, not at top of rudder. Where it should have been all along, if you ask me.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2018, 05:00 
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The factory 700P aslo has the pitot tube down on the nose, not at top of rudder. :scratch: Where it should have been all along, if you ask me.

I don't think I have ever seen an Aerostar with the pitot tube attached to the rudder. :eek:
:peace: :bugeye: attached to the vertical stabilizer sounds reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2018, 09:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
The factory 700P aslo has the pitot tube down on the nose, not at top of rudder. :scratch: Where it should have been all along, if you ask me.

I don't think I have ever seen an Aerostar with the pitot tube attached to the rudder. :eek:
:peace: :bugeye: attached to the vertical stabilizer sounds reasonable.


:bugeye: Picky, :bugeye: picky, :bugeye: picky.

:D Jg

I will have to say that the pitot tube attached to the "rudder" was probably my most "disliked" feature of the airplane. I looked into moving mine, actually a second one, to the nose and found that it wasn't going to be nearly as easy as it would seem.

Jg
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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2018, 10:11 
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You dis Ted’s iconic “stinger”...sacrilege! Actually, I always thought it was in a good place, clean air and away from potential ramp damage. In 10 years and 2 Aerostars, I never covered it and it never became obstructed.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2018, 16:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
You dis Ted’s iconic “stinger”...sacrilege! Actually, I always thought it was in a good place, clean air and away from potential ramp damage. In 10 years and 2 Aerostars, I never covered it and it never became obstructed.


Yeah, but JG lives where the bugs are the size of small birds. And they can lay eggs in any random hole around. In the frozen north, you do not worry about such considerations...

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2018, 18:38 
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You dis Ted’s iconic “stinger”...sacrilege! Actually, I always thought it was in a good place, clean air and away from potential ramp damage. In 10 years and 2 Aerostars, I never covered it and it never became obstructed.


Tim is correct, but more than that, damn dirt dobbers. I was in the ranch shop the other day and picked up an air chuck with a quick fitting. Plugged it in and tried to fill up the tires on one of the side by sides: nothing. It had mud dobber spit that 120# of air wouldn't budge. It took and ice pick and BP blaster to get that stuff out. THAT is why I'm paranoid about pitot tubes getting clogged.

I remember as a kid hanging around Christopher Aviation's shop, they were having a problem with the pitot tube on a small Cessna, a 140 I think. They could not get the tubing open and finally had to disassemble the whole system. There was a dirt dobber nest five or six feet up in the tubing.

So, I was never comfortable with a pitot tube I could neither cover or inspect.

Jg

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 00:14 
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Location: Everson, WA
KSEZ to KAPC, FL220, 240 KTAS
November 25, 2018

[youtube]https://youtu.be/jljWFvDem4k[/youtube]

I love flying this airplane! :dancing:


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 17:50 
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JOSH...what camera?


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 19:24 
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JOSH...what camera?


iPhone 6 with a scratched up wrap-around waterproof case. I drop the damn thing constantly, and although the case obscures the camera, it keeps everything in one piece.

In comparison, it's amazing what the cameras on newer phones can do. Eric Reese snapped this from the right seat while doing my IPC last summer. I think it was an iPhone 10. Much better quality.

Attachment:
seattle.jpg


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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