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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 17:43 
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Bruce a typical flight profile for my 700 in the high teens is:

Takeoff
42"
2500rpm
85gph :doh: :doh:

Climb
155kias
37"
2400rpm
66gph
1450EGT
1000fpm tailing off to 750fpm by top of climb

Cruise
225ktas - 230ktas
32"
2200rpm
44gph
1550EGT

With IFR reserves I treat it as a 3 hour airplane standard fuel and 4 hours aux fuel.

Most of my flights are 1.5 - 3.0 hours.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 20:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
Bruce a typical flight profile for my 700 in the high teens is:

Takeoff
42"
2500rpm
85gph :doh: :doh:

Climb
155kias
37"
2400rpm
66gph
1450EGT
1000fpm tailing off to 750fpm by top of climb

Cruise
225ktas - 230ktas
32"
2200rpm
44gph
1550EGT

With IFR reserves I treat it as a 3 hour airplane standard fuel and 4 hours aux fuel.

Most of my flights are 1.5 - 3.0 hours.


John, I have not been in an A* in a number of years, but 44gph yielding 230 kts. sounds a bit thirsty. Are you sure? Maybe 34 gph? Maybe my memory is bad, IDK.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 22:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
Bruce a typical flight profile for my 700 in the high teens is:

Takeoff
42"
2500rpm
85gph :doh: :doh:

Climb
155kias
37"
2400rpm
66gph
1450EGT
1000fpm tailing off to 750fpm by top of climb

Cruise
225ktas - 230ktas
32"
2200rpm
44gph
1550EGT

With IFR reserves I treat it as a 3 hour airplane standard fuel and 4 hours aux fuel.

Most of my flights are 1.5 - 3.0 hours.


John, I have not been in an A* in a number of years, but 44gph yielding 230 kts. sounds a bit thirsty. Are you sure? Maybe 34 gph? Maybe my memory is bad, IDK.


It’s actually pretty close to book numbers. Total of course; 22gph per side

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 22:57 
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Username Protected wrote:
I always left the extra fuel needed in the aux tank, then topped off the fuselage tank when parking it. Then if I knew that I needed the extra fuel, I would transfer it while preflighting.


Makes sense, especially if fuel is accessible. I depend on the city for 100LL and it can take an hour.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 23:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
Bruce,

Your 601P with std fuel is going to have about the same range as a 700 with aux fuel.

There are good reasons for going to a 700:

Speed

Single Engine Rate of Climb

Higher GW (especially a 700 with the nose gear upgrade)


But range isn’t one.


If you want more range, put in a set of GAMIs and do the work to get a tight GAMI spread.
Also, put in a set of Tempest Fine Wire Plugs.

And get comfortable running LOP.

If that isn’t enough, find an over-fill cap (warning some over-fill caps require a field approval for use) that will get you 185 gallons.

If the hassle of fueling with an over-fill cap is too much, install that aux tank.
210-230 gallons.

If you aren’t happy with how your plane handles at max gross weight, put on a pair of the AAC winglets.

:bud:

Forrest


Great thoughts Forrest. Were you not able to make it run the way you wanted without the gamis? I don’t know what the cylinders are doing without a monitor but it seems to do what the book says and runs smoothly at low FF and EGT on the stock guage is 1575 at most if I use the book numbers. I run 24” 2200 rpm for 65% or less per Jim C and I can’t get the MP you do up high if I wanted. FL210 is the highest I can maybe get 24” at 2200. I don’t have the later turbos either. I have yet to figure if I should consider it as good as it gets or needs rigging or what. 650 hours on everything except new wastegates.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2021, 23:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
Bruce a typical flight profile for my 700 i

John, I have not been in an A* in a number of years, but 44gph yielding 230 kts. sounds a bit thirsty. Are you sure? Maybe 34 gph? Maybe my memory is bad, IDK.


It’s actually pretty close to book numbers. Total of course; 22gph per side


I guess there’s no free lunch!

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Jul 2021, 07:15 
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Aircraft: Aerostar
My plane is a 601P with short props (300HP) and intercoolers and winglets.

I plan fuel based on 40 gal (150 miles) 1st hour and 30 gal (200 miles) for each hour after that.
My actual burn is less, but these (napkin) numbers make ordering fuel easy.


Climb power is 54/gal/hr @29” x 2,550 rpm (reduced from 2,700 for take off)

Normal climb is at Vz (154KIAS), or at least 145KIAS to keep cylinders below 400.


In cruise I burn between 12.5 and 14 gph /side.

I’m limited on how much gas I can burn by the 1650TIT limit.

At FL210 I see around 215 true at 13.5 gal/hr/side.

LOP

My normal philosophy is to run LOP at as high a FF as I can, limited by the TIT of the hottest turbo.

If I am trying for max range, 12.5 gph /side is very doable at the cost of around 10kts indicated.

My plane has the AAC winglets, they change the drag profile so operating in the high 130s - low 140s (indicated) is very comfortable/stable.
Before it had the winglets (especially up high) cruise was less stable as at those (low indicated) speeds total drag seemed to go up as the plane slowed and MAP (power) dropped as the plane slowed.

Technical disclaimer:

In the previous paragraph I used a word that implied opinion and not definite answers (“seemed”).

I’m an airplane driver, not an aeronautical (or mechanical) engineer.

My experience has been that (clean) without winglets it takes more power to fly at 120kts than at 130-140Kts.

And at low(er) power settings (LOP) up high (think mid20s), my throttles are at the stops and my waste gates are fully closed so more airspeed results in more MAP (and more FF).

Practically this means the aircraft’s speed is unstable, if it goes a little slower it tends to keep going slower.

Winglets fix this characteristic even at high altitudes with the throttles at the stops.



The 700s run VERY rich for cooling.

IMO they need to run rich for cooling.

350HP TIO-540 engines aren’t bad, they are different.

If you want what they can do, they are terrific.

:woot:


Forrest


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Jul 2021, 08:17 
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Aircraft: Aerostar
“Great thoughts Forrest. Were you not able to make it run the way you wanted without the gamis? I don’t know what the cylinders are doing without a monitor but it seems to do what the book says and runs smoothly at low FF and EGT on the stock guage is 1575 at most if I use the book numbers. I run 24” 2200 rpm for 65% or less per Jim C and I can’t get the MP you do up high if I wanted. FL210 is the highest I can maybe get 24” at 2200. I don’t have the later turbos either. I have yet to figure if I should consider it as good as it gets or needs rigging or what. 650 hours on everything except new wastegates.”



When I got the plane my previous experience was in Navajos (mostly Chieftains).

I put the GAMIs in before I had fully explored what the plane was capable of without them.

In hindsight that was a mistake, as I ended up experiencing the draw back to GAMI injectors (more difficult to clean) without knowing how to enjoy their benefits (long story).

I didn’t start running LOP until I attended an APS class at Ada.

Initially, I explored using low power settings, at low MAP, (ROP) at high altitudes as a way to get maximum range.

LOP is a much better way to get range.



Soap box time:

Bruce, you NEED an engine monitor.

You have 12 cylinders, 24 spark plugs, 4 turbochargers, 4 magnetos, and a bunch of other stuff that will have issues. Without an engine monitor you won’t know what is causing a problem.

I put an engine monitor right up there with an aux hydraulic pump and an electric door seal pump as must have items on an Aerostar.

It doesn’t need to be one of the fancy ones with a color screen and a vibration analyzer, IMO you do want a digital fuel flow indicator if you are going to run LOP.

Off soapbox.



I’m doing this from memory so verify.

First, how do you know you have the low altitude turbos?

I thought those were gone (who would want to keep/overhaul them?)

Assuming high altitude turbos:

At 2,550 you should be able to maintain 29” up to FL230.

And you should not have a problem maintaining 65% power right up to FL250.

If your turbo system is getting weak (or you really have the original low altitude turbos) increasing your rpm will help maintaining MAP at high altitudes. There is a chart in your POH that will give you alternate ways to get to 65%.

You don’t have a way to know the TIT of the turbo that isn’t connected to your stock TIT gauge (gauge is connected to right side turbo).

Smooth running does not mean something isn’t cooking.

I believe the APS course is still available on line.

There are folks out there (I was one, once) who recommend just leaning for 1550 TIT (ROP) and calling it good.

My advice: until you get an engine monitor don’t lean to a TIT higher than 1550 and don’t let cylinder temp go above 400.

Last piece of advice:

If you aren’t sure whether your turbos are rigged correctly, they probably aren’t.

You need to schedule a visit to a (real) Aerostar expert.

Forrest


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Jul 2021, 21:17 
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Username Protected wrote:

Soap box time:

Bruce, you NEED an engine monitor.

You have 12 cylinders, 24 spark plugs, 4 turbochargers, 4 magnetos, and a bunch of other stuff that will have issues. Without an engine monitor you won’t know what is causing a problem.

I put an engine monitor right up there with an aux hydraulic pump and an electric door seal pump as must have items on an Aerostar.

It doesn’t need to be one of the fancy ones with a color screen and a vibration analyzer, IMO you do want a digital fuel flow indicator if you are going to run LOP.

Off soapbox.



I’m doing this from memory so verify.

First, how do you know you have the low altitude turbos?

I thought those were gone (who would want to keep/overhaul them?)

Assuming high altitude turbos:

At 2,550 you should be able to maintain 29” up to FL230.

And you should not have a problem maintaining 65% power right up to FL250.

If your turbo system is getting weak (or you really have the original low altitude turbos) increasing your rpm will help maintaining MAP at high altitudes. There is a chart in your POH that will give you alternate ways to get to 65%.

You don’t have a way to know the TIT of the turbo that isn’t connected to your stock TIT gauge (gauge is connected to right side turbo).

Smooth running does not mean something isn’t cooking.

I believe the APS course is still available on line.

There are folks out there (I was one, once) who recommend just leaning for 1550 TIT (ROP) and calling it good.

My advice: until you get an engine monitor don’t lean to a TIT higher than 1550 and don’t let cylinder temp go above 400.

Last piece of advice:

If you aren’t sure whether your turbos are rigged correctly, they probably aren’t.

You need to schedule a visit to a (real) Aerostar expert.

Forrest


You’re preaching to the choir Forrest - my biggest request before I picked it up was to get a JPI installed. This plane came with 5 straight AAC 100 hour inspections. It was awesome from the get go. Including the winglets :thumbup: But they and everyone else, including my own shops, were too busy to do the install. Plus I needed to get some work done. Still do for a couple more months. Shoemakers shoes and all that. :shrug:

I’ve done APS. Very fun and educational but I also realized same results running a 1960 IO-540 by the original POH. Turbo setups are riskier, obviously. But somehow, the plane has made it 45 years without the monitor. With intercoolers and below 65%, with my excessive injector cleaning, new plugs, etc. hopefully she’s happy.

But anyway I get it. When I get the engine monitor put in, I’ll either be relieved or horrified! Stay tuned. :pray:

Edit: I took it out of go fast mode a week ago. Had a 10-20 knot push but weathered out of State College, PA. In 4:09 airborne, the it burned 121.5 gallons total. Today did the same thing coming home. 4:30 enroute and indicates 50 gal remaining though I calculate 35.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N29L ... /KUNV/KAPF


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2021, 07:15 
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“But somehow, the plane has made it 45 years without the monitor.”

45 years ago, before intercoolers, those poorly instrumented 601Ps were very hard on cylinders.

Have the plane’s engines made it to TBO without a cylinder change, how many hours do turbos last?


Can’t argue with success.

:cheers:


On those long, best economy power settings, trips:

What was your true airspeed and power settings and FFs on those long flights?

“Today did the same thing coming home. 4:30 enroute and indicates 50 gal remaining though I calculate 35.“

Always a good idea to go with the most pessimistic fuel indication.

When you next top off you will know what you had.



Here is a piece of (my) Aerostar wisdom gained at some cost and inconvenience:

The little rubber index lines that go to the injectors are often the source of ‘clogged’ injectors.
They start to break down and throw tiny pieces of rubber that get stuck inside an injector and cause rough running in flight.

Worse, when you pull the injectors to clean them, you risk more rubber pieces coming loose. With an engine monitor, at least, you can know which injector is acting up.

The disadvantage of GAMI injectors is that they don't disassemble like stock Lycoming injectors, removing that tiny piece of trash can be problematic.

In the past, I have had to send an injector back to GAMI for replacement to get rid of a clog, at least with an engine monitor, I knew which injector to send.

Lesson learned:

If injector issues are a problem, replace those lines.


I didn’t realize your plane already has winglets (photo on FA must have been taken before they went on)
:thumbup:


Back to your original question:

Should I trade my 601P for a 700? (For more range).


Heck no.


If you really are determined to have the capability to do 900+mile trips with some headwind and decent reserves at your destination AND you don’t mind losing the baggage space AND with a full 210 (or 230 gal) you have enough available payload to legally haul yourself and your passengers and bags.

Build on the plane you have!



Forrest


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2021, 17:51 
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Bruce,

I used to have a 700 with the gross weight increase, and pressure increase. If I kept the plane I would have added winglets. With the 700 you have a choice between running fast or running far. Most 700 owners run fast.
I did multiple 1000+ NM trips in the 700. My longest west bound was Morgantown WV to Laramie Wyoming non-stop. I always landed with 60+ gallons. (my rule for one approach, climb and one hour cruise)

In the 700 you have 7.5 vs 8.5 CR engines. This means at LOP you will need to carry about 1/2-1 gallon per hour per engine. So the Aux tank which carries a lot more than the additional 10 gallons you will burn on that five hour flight.

For long range cruise, I would run about 125 KIAS at 24-28K , at roughly 13.5GPH per engine.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2021, 18:39 
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“ For long range cruise, I would run about 125 KIAS at 24-28K , at roughly 13.5GPH per engine. ”


I am going to assume this is in the Flight Levels.

:dancing:

As a point of reference:

My heavy draggy 601P does 10-15 knots IAS faster on the same fuel burn.


Forrest


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 25 Jul 2021, 23:44 
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Is it a “Heavy draggy” 601P or, as one of the 700 drivers called it “wheezy” - I got a laugh out of that one.

Tim -125 KIAS? I’m gonna have to do the math on that one. :peace:

I don’t believe the airspeed indicator so will do another GPS ground speed check but it looks like this with most of the fuel onboard and within 5 degrees of a “hot day” by the chart. Almost level in cruise so I think the winglets help up high. Don’t mind the flying shoes - I put full nomex on for takeoff and landing and was just moving the sunshade to the back of the plane … :thumbup:


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2021, 05:21 
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Aircraft: Aerostar
Heavy draggy= HF radio w/antenna, electric AC, Oregon Aero Interior, Boots, IR camera, plus antennas for various avionics.

I can go light on gas, but I’m stuck with drag from all the antennas and boots and camera.

As for protective gear: :shrug:

I know a fellow Aerostar owner who wears a helmet when he goes flying, and others who wear just enough to avoid scaring the ramp guys.

My prospective is that one should wear what’s comfortable.

Forrest


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2021, 05:40 
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180KIAS @ FL200 at 24” x 2,200!!!!!

:bow:


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