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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 25 May 2022, 23:34 
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Username Protected wrote:
In the Aerostar maintenance school they suggest only extending the gear in straight and level flight, the doors are so long that the airflow really puts stress on them.in a bank. We often find cracks in the main Leg doors and this is one of the causes.


That's what I was taught as well and practiced.

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Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 26 May 2022, 00:13 
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Company: Northern Aviation, LLC
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Username Protected wrote:
In the Aerostar maintenance school they suggest only extending the gear in straight and level flight, the doors are so long that the airflow really puts stress on them.in a bank. We often find cracks in the main Leg doors and this is one of the causes.


More important to make sure the ball is centered, even a slight yaw will put an unwanted load on the doors. Straight and level doesn’t hurt, but being coordinated is key.

Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 26 May 2022, 09:40 
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Joined: 12/18/12
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Location: Europe
Aircraft: Aerostar 600A
NIL: On my very 1st flight in my A* , with an instructor, I promptly broke the gear door bellcrank on the second pattern.

Expensive lesson, but VERY convincing !

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 26 May 2022, 11:06 
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Joined: 01/05/11
Posts: 314
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Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
Username Protected wrote:
NIL: On my very 1st flight in my A* , with an instructor, I promptly broke the gear door bellcrank on the second pattern.

Expensive lesson, but VERY convincing !


Yep, same here, but, without the instructor. First flight solo after instruction.
Slow, late, coordinated and level. Never had a problem since.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 May 2022, 23:07 
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Joined: 12/19/09
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Company: Premier Bone and Joint
Location: Wyoming
Aircraft: BE90,HUSK,MU-2
I always just made sure I was at or below gear speed and was coordinated. Never gave much thought to whether I was climbing or descending and if I was turning. The Aerostar to some extent coordinated things on its own. Flew two types over about 10 years and never had a bell crank break (but plenty of other stuff did).

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 29 May 2022, 08:45 
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Joined: 01/23/18
Posts: 611
Post Likes: +887
Aircraft: Aerostar
https://www.airpowerinc.com/renpl-rt8554

:bugeye:

Rough numbers:

$100/Hr (assuming 1800 hr TBO)

Plane is back from annual inspection.

Bill $42,000 /200 hours $210/hr

That number included the prop overhauls but I didn’t do any avionics work/updates this year, bottom line: there is always going to be something (and prop shop says that next time I’m going to need new blades :duck: )

Regular maintenance and repairs throughout the year about $40K -$200/hr

Hanger: $6000/YR - $30/HR

Insurance for 1MM smooth and $225K hull $15,000/yr -$75/hr

XM/Iridium/Chart Subscriptions - $7K - $35/hr

Did props this year (@7 yrs) $16/k + labor and ship - $15/hr

$25/hr for paint and interior every 15 years (3000hrs)
($45K + 30K - probably low numbers)

Figure ten hours a year of IFR/Night proficiency work:

30 gal /hr x $7.00/gal x 10 hours -$2100/200hrs - $11/HR

Based on my calculations:
$701/HR

This number doesn’t place any value on what the plane might be worth or would cost to purchase….

I leave that math to prospective owners…
:scratch:


Could any of these numbers be lower?

I’m skeptical—-

Forgo hanger and paint and interior are going to degrade faster

Self insure for hull….

That mean YOU are taking the risk of damage or loss…

In my opinion that is trading the certainty of an insurance bill for the possibility of a much larger bill if you have a bad day. You may save money, or you may just be trading smaller bills for one large bill.

Exceed TBO—-

That is a way to save money, if the engine holds together for those extra hours.

IMO those extra hours should be viewed as a happy bonus and not counted on for budget purposes.

What I think is interesting about these numbers is that at 200 hours/year, fixed, or per year, costs are a lot less than 1/2 the total cost of ownership.

The other thing is, while not insignificant, the cost of getting the engines reman’d is only about 1/10th of the total (including fuel) cost of operation.

Bottom line:

Over the life of the engines, the purchase price of the aircraft (or the cost of a pair of reman’d engines) is about 1/10 of the cost of ownership.


When asked, I’m sticking with “$750/hr plus fuel” as my answer.

And that figure is based on today’s prices not the actual cost at the time the work has to be done.

And last time I bought gas (FS in Gainesville FL) it was over $7.50/gal!
:sad:

But, Friday I was @ FL240, enroute to Vero Beach, well off shore, watching a line of thunderstorms to my West and appreciating the reality that in all of human history there are (and have been) only a few folks who get to have this experience.

Attachment:
17BCCC41-D225-4CF3-AF90-32C82CBBD070.png


Finally, soap box:

Other complex twins are going to have the same level of operating cost and these numbers are on a well used and well maintained aircraft.

The cost of bringing a (any) derelict or neglected complex twin up to the standard of my Aerostar is going to be far more costly.

In other words:

Cheap to buy doesn’t equal cheap to own!

Have a great weekend and if you haven’t gone yet, go to TG2!

:cheers:


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 29 May 2022, 09:07 
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Joined: 10/18/11
Posts: 1026
Post Likes: +584
Aircraft: Seabee Aerostar 700
I don't fly as much as you but my experience shows numbers similar to yours. I usually figure about $650 per hour with fuel but I don't put in some of the long term maintenance reserves.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 29 May 2022, 19:46 
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Joined: 11/25/19
Posts: 175
Post Likes: +85
Aircraft: Aerostar 601P, AS350
Username Protected wrote:
https://www.airpowerinc.com/renpl-rt8554

:bugeye:

Rough numbers:

$100/Hr (assuming 1800 hr TBO)

Plane is back from annual inspection.

Bill $42,000 /200 hours $210/hr

That number included the prop overhauls but I didn’t do any avionics work/updates this year, bottom line: there is always going to be something (and prop shop says that next time I’m going to need new blades :duck: )

Regular maintenance and repairs throughout the year about $40K -$200/hr

Hanger: $6000/YR - $30/HR

Insurance for 1MM smooth and $225K hull $15,000/yr -$75/hr

XM/Iridium/Chart Subscriptions - $7K - $35/hr

Did props this year (@7 yrs) $16/k + labor and ship - $15/hr

$25/hr for paint and interior every 15 years (3000hrs)
($45K + 30K - probably low numbers)

Figure ten hours a year of IFR/Night proficiency work:

30 gal /hr x $7.00/gal x 10 hours -$2100/200hrs - $11/HR

Based on my calculations:
$701/HR

This number doesn’t place any value on what the plane might be worth or would cost to purchase….

I leave that math to prospective owners…
:scratch:


Could any of these numbers be lower?

I’m skeptical—-

Forgo hanger and paint and interior are going to degrade faster

Self insure for hull….

That mean YOU are taking the risk of damage or loss…

In my opinion that is trading the certainty of an insurance bill for the possibility of a much larger bill if you have a bad day. You may save money, or you may just be trading smaller bills for one large bill.

Exceed TBO—-

That is a way to save money, if the engine holds together for those extra hours.

IMO those extra hours should be viewed as a happy bonus and not counted on for budget purposes.

What I think is interesting about these numbers is that at 200 hours/year, fixed, or per year, costs are a lot less than 1/2 the total cost of ownership.

The other thing is, while not insignificant, the cost of getting the engines reman’d is only about 1/10th of the total (including fuel) cost of operation.

Bottom line:

Over the life of the engines, the purchase price of the aircraft (or the cost of a pair of reman’d engines) is about 1/10 of the cost of ownership.


When asked, I’m sticking with “$750/hr plus fuel” as my answer.

And that figure is based on today’s prices not the actual cost at the time the work has to be done.

And last time I bought gas (FS in Gainesville FL) it was over $7.50/gal!
:sad:

But, Friday I was @ FL240, enroute to Vero Beach, well off shore, watching a line of thunderstorms to my West and appreciating the reality that in all of human history there are (and have been) only a few folks who get to have this experience.

Attachment:
17BCCC41-D225-4CF3-AF90-32C82CBBD070.png


Finally, soap box:

Other complex twins are going to have the same level of operating cost and these numbers are on a well used and well maintained aircraft.

The cost of bringing a (any) derelict or neglected complex twin up to the standard of my Aerostar is going to be far more costly.

In other words:

Cheap to buy doesn’t equal cheap to own!

Have a great weekend and if you haven’t gone yet, go to TG2!

:cheers:



Forrest, sent you a PM


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 May 2022, 09:11 
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Joined: 02/06/18
Posts: 1074
Post Likes: +1154
Aircraft: Piper PA-32R 300
Username Protected wrote:
https://www.airpowerinc.com/renpl-rt8554

:bugeye:

Rough numbers:

$100/Hr (assuming 1800 hr TBO)

Plane is back from annual inspection.

Bill $42,000 /200 hours $210/hr

That number included the prop overhauls but I didn’t do any avionics work/updates this year, bottom line: there is always going to be something (and prop shop says that next time I’m going to need new blades :duck: )

Regular maintenance and repairs throughout the year about $40K -$200/hr

Hanger: $6000/YR - $30/HR

Insurance for 1MM smooth and $225K hull $15,000/yr -$75/hr

XM/Iridium/Chart Subscriptions - $7K - $35/hr

Did props this year (@7 yrs) $16/k + labor and ship - $15/hr

$25/hr for paint and interior every 15 years (3000hrs)
($45K + 30K - probably low numbers)

Figure ten hours a year of IFR/Night proficiency work:

30 gal /hr x $7.00/gal x 10 hours -$2100/200hrs - $11/HR

Based on my calculations:
$701/HR

This number doesn’t place any value on what the plane might be worth or would cost to purchase….

I leave that math to prospective owners…
:scratch:


Could any of these numbers be lower?

I’m skeptical—-

Forgo hanger and paint and interior are going to degrade faster

Self insure for hull….

That mean YOU are taking the risk of damage or loss…

In my opinion that is trading the certainty of an insurance bill for the possibility of a much larger bill if you have a bad day. You may save money, or you may just be trading smaller bills for one large bill.

Exceed TBO—-

That is a way to save money, if the engine holds together for those extra hours.

IMO those extra hours should be viewed as a happy bonus and not counted on for budget purposes.

What I think is interesting about these numbers is that at 200 hours/year, fixed, or per year, costs are a lot less than 1/2 the total cost of ownership.

The other thing is, while not insignificant, the cost of getting the engines reman’d is only about 1/10th of the total (including fuel) cost of operation.

Bottom line:

Over the life of the engines, the purchase price of the aircraft (or the cost of a pair of reman’d engines) is about 1/10 of the cost of ownership.


When asked, I’m sticking with “$750/hr plus fuel” as my answer.

And that figure is based on today’s prices not the actual cost at the time the work has to be done.

And last time I bought gas (FS in Gainesville FL) it was over $7.50/gal!
:sad:

But, Friday I was @ FL240, enroute to Vero Beach, well off shore, watching a line of thunderstorms to my West and appreciating the reality that in all of human history there are (and have been) only a few folks who get to have this experience.

Attachment:
17BCCC41-D225-4CF3-AF90-32C82CBBD070.png


Finally, soap box:

Other complex twins are going to have the same level of operating cost and these numbers are on a well used and well maintained aircraft.

The cost of bringing a (any) derelict or neglected complex twin up to the standard of my Aerostar is going to be far more costly.

In other words:

Cheap to buy doesn’t equal cheap to own!

Have a great weekend and if you haven’t gone yet, go to TG2!

:cheers:


Everyday, It seems I am further and further away from owning one of these amazing rides. :sad:

Hats off to those who pull it off.

_________________
Ron

"It rubs the lotion on it's skin"


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 May 2022, 10:06 
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Joined: 01/23/18
Posts: 611
Post Likes: +887
Aircraft: Aerostar
Ron,

Owning an Aerostar is cheaper than a serious cocaine habit and more socially acceptable (but not necessarily cheaper) than a mistress.

There are lots of folks who manage to figure out how to afford one or the other (or both!), it comes down to priorities.

:thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 31 May 2022, 15:55 
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Joined: 11/08/13
Posts: 1913
Post Likes: +1167
Location: KCRQ
Aircraft: Breeezy, 182,601P
These numbers are probably good....
It matches my experience... I'd say all in cost at 100/hr per year with any reasonable reserves is between $800 and $1000/hr. If you do a lot of your own work and the plane is fully sorted out one might get to $700. Not sorted out in a high cost state one could easily get to more than $1200/hr.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 31 May 2022, 20:21 
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Joined: 02/04/10
Posts: 1514
Post Likes: +2637
Company: Northern Aviation, LLC
Aircraft: C45H, Aerostar, T28B
There are a few things in my life I will never put the cost to a spreadsheet. Family, Aerostar, pets, are just a few. Somethings are just better enjoyed for what they are and left at that.

Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2022, 11:57 
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Joined: 01/17/21
Posts: 87
Post Likes: +42
Aircraft: C550
+1 for no spreadsheet ever on a few things just enjoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2022, 16:32 
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Joined: 02/09/14
Posts: 208
Post Likes: +93
Username Protected wrote:
https://www.airpowerinc.com/renpl-rt8554

:bugeye:

Rough numbers:

Based on my calculations:
$701/HR

When asked, I’m sticking with “$750/hr plus fuel” as my answer.


For fun, Forrest, I went back to my numbers from last year: an even three thousand gallons of fuel at an average of a little over $5 a gallon and total expenditures (maintenance, hangar, insurance, even a sim shop ICC BFR visit) of $50k. So figure total cost is triple the fuel burn.

Granted my numbers don't include amortization for engine / prop / avionics / paint / interior overhaul. But they're triple the fuel burn. And fuel cost is one-third of my $500 / hour operating budget rather than an additional cost as you have it.

I don't see how you get 50% more expensive on an hourly cost basis. AND you have to add in your fuel costs, another $150 / hour last year, $210 / hour this year with $7 gas, on top of it. You're really saying $900 - $960 / hour with reserves.

It would be fun trying to spend that much but I'd run out of panel space and AAC options in no time. There's a reason most of the 600s ended up in fleet operations and these days have 6,000+ hours on the airframe. And it's not because they guzzle gas or are maintenance hangar queens.

A $42,000 annual on top of $40,000 a year in regular maintenance and repairs? Who is your recommended AEST mechanic?

I'm not swapping for a Brand B or Brand C or Brand P anytime soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2022, 17:50 
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Joined: 01/23/18
Posts: 611
Post Likes: +887
Aircraft: Aerostar
There is a reason there is a STC to remove the turbos from 601s and it’s why no one used turbo charged Aerostars to haul checks.

I agree with your math.

$1K/HR + including fuel is in the ball park.


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