banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 15:03 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 2880 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93 ... 192  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 13:45 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/05/15
Posts: 382
Post Likes: +104
Location: KSLC
Aircraft: Divorced: AC690A-10
Have the engines really topped $100k ? Is that including all the accessories ?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 14:39 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 03/08/14
Posts: 102
Post Likes: +118
Company: Innovation Two
Aircraft: Piper PA 60
Overhaul / new from the factory, plus accessories (often including turbos on Aerostars) then add in Remove / Install - that's not far off.


Bob


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 16:13 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 11885
Post Likes: +2848
Company: Looking
Location: Outside Boston, or some hotel somewhere
Aircraft: None
Username Protected wrote:
Have the engines really topped $100k ? Is that including all the accessories ?


I did a remove/replace of one engine with a factory reman, replaced a few accessories, overhaul others on both engines, overhaul both props...
Total bill was $135K
If I recall correctly, after exchange of the engine core the engine alone was roughly 80K.

Tim


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 16:26 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 03/08/14
Posts: 102
Post Likes: +118
Company: Innovation Two
Aircraft: Piper PA 60
Yes some postings on the AeroStar-Forum support those numbers - I note that your 135,000 was for just one engine, plus the two props at maybe 15K.

THEN you may need to spend money correcting flaws that come from the factory - I've seen some evidence of that - with no help / sympathy from the factory.

Bob Keeping


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 18:13 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/05/15
Posts: 382
Post Likes: +104
Location: KSLC
Aircraft: Divorced: AC690A-10
As disturbing as those figures are, it's still nice to know for budgeting purposes. Folks on these forums who throw out really low numbers create unrealistic expectations for some of us. Just because someone got a great deal once doesn't mean it's something I can count on ever finding for myself. I never find anything on the clearance rack.

Thanks for the good data, guys.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 19:20 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/30/15
Posts: 1697
Post Likes: +1712
Location: Charlotte
Aircraft: Avanti-Citabria
If one buys an Aerostar or 58P or Cessna 421 without at least 100k mentally set aside to cover your “mistress in distress” you might be disappointed.

After 10 years of SE NA non pressurized no AC but otherwise fabulous Columbia 350 ownership the Aerostar is simply AMAZING

I would say the set aside bank account for any twin turbine would need to start at 250k.

I went into A* ownership knowing I had a 35yr old attention demanding airplane.
After several smallish issues and still troubleshooting radar issues the :D REMAINS

Thank you to Forrest and JGG, Jim Christy and others :cheers:

_________________
I wanna go phastR.....and slowR


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 00:07 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 09/25/08
Posts: 469
Post Likes: +514
Aircraft: 700P, F35, D17
Love my Aerostar after a lot of years of flying the bird. With that said, every year as I come up on the annual I always get worried about whether the compression gods will smile down on me.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 01:43 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6322
Post Likes: +5520
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Did both my engines on the Aerostar for about $120K. Cheap compared to $135K for one as in this thread, but not cheap for me. I did the classic mistake thinking the quoted $26K per engine was going to be it. By the time you've done all the accessories and the labor, it doubles. So my advice to anyone doing this for the first time, be it a Cub or a 421, is to double the engine overhaul quote. That will bring you pretty close.

_________________
Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 07:38 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 08/15/11
Posts: 2388
Post Likes: +1055
Location: Mandan, ND
Aircraft: V35
Not totally unlike engines for the "Ho". We were budgeting $200k. Factory overhauls were $60k each, 2 prop overhauls, rebuild engine mounts (inspect, powder coat), new Lord mounts, new hoses, baffling repair, R&R labor, etc...

We had last done it in 2009, and the final bill was just under $200k. So, that adjusted for 2018 money got us to the $200k.

I dont think a "P" wouldnt be much different. A non turbo would be less for sure.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 19:02 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/13
Posts: 1913
Post Likes: +1167
Location: KCRQ
Aircraft: Breeezy, 182,601P
I just did this..
Factory Reman
4 Overhauled turbos.(did both sides)
Overhaul or inspect the scavenge pump, prop and governor as the old engine
made metal...

Total bill was ~100K + 9K annual.

54K engine.
4K core damage.
13K turbos.
8K for prop gov and scavenge pump overhaul.
19K for all the labor..

Then immediately after the engine swap went to the aerostar specialist to do the annual (9K more)


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 19:33 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/05/15
Posts: 382
Post Likes: +104
Location: KSLC
Aircraft: Divorced: AC690A-10
Username Protected wrote:
I just did this..
Factory Reman
4 Overhauled turbos.(did both sides)
Overhaul or inspect the scavenge pump, prop and governor as the old engine
made metal...

Total bill was ~100K + 9K annual.

54K engine.
4K core damage.
13K turbos.
8K for prop gov and scavenge pump overhaul.
19K for all the labor..

Then immediately after the engine swap went to the aerostar specialist to do the annual (9K more)


Sounds like a bargain.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2018, 22:04 
Online


 Profile




Joined: 10/18/08
Posts: 1008
Post Likes: +204
Aircraft: Aerostar 601p/700
In 2012 I do both engines on a 700. I exchanged my S1A5s for U2As. I redid just about everything. props, governors, scavenge pumps, all turbos, hoses, motor mounts, egt, cht and tit sensors, baffling, etc. The only thing I didn't do and should have done were wastegates. I have since done 2 of them and have one more that I keep needing to free up so that will be next.

The lycoming remans in 2012 with working but different model cores were $57K each. All the other stuff was about $25k a side. Labor with some labor from myself was another $10-15K or so a side.

So about $90K a side. I will never get it back when I sell. I do have a fairly reliable airplane now.

I bought the airplane with engines done by reputable engine shops and 500-600h a side. Both engines were blowing out oil, making some metal. One engine had broken pistons noted when one cylinder was removed. Once piston had a chunk of metal out of it. So either a top overhaul, that would add no value, or upgrade to a U2A. The U2A is the desired engine and adds some value at resale.

The other engine also was blowing out oil. When the cylinders were removed from that engine a bad cam lobe was noted.

That is my story. I wish I had the money for a turbine and the turbine's reliability. Even with a turbine if something goes bad it can get expensive in a hurry.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2018, 23:27 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/25/11
Posts: 9168
Post Likes: +17159
Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
Aircraft: Baron, 180,195,J-3
Had the A* at the shop today. They just completed the overhaul of a TIO-540 in a Navajo and doing an IO-540 on a Cherokee Six now. It has a cracked case.

$35,000 plus turbos and accessories. I think $5,000 for all remove/install labor.

Jg

_________________
Waste no time with fools. They have nothing to lose.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2018, 02:44 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6322
Post Likes: +5520
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Username Protected wrote:

That is my story. I wish I had the money for a turbine and the turbine's reliability. Even with a turbine if something goes bad it can get expensive in a hurry.


Here's the thing - I'm not personally a great example as of yet, but on paper the turbines pen out pretty close to an Aerostar. Mine was abut $450/hr - and that was with bog standard overhauls. Factory reman and all that good stuff adds to it. TC is about $550-600/hr - not far off. For that you get about 20-30% more speed, 50-100% more reliability and dispatch rate.

The only thing that can really ruin your day on a turbine cost-wise, is a fuel control unit needing replacement or if the engine hand grenades. They'll eat your lunch financially. Everything else is on par with piston engines in costs. Prop overhauls? Same as piston. Starter/generator? Same as a starter and a generator on a piston. Hot sections? You save that on not having to do 50hr oil changes. Etc, etc.

_________________
Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2018, 07:47 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/25/11
Posts: 9168
Post Likes: +17159
Location: KGNF, Grenada, MS
Aircraft: Baron, 180,195,J-3
Adam,

I have followed yours and every other journey into turbine ownership with great interest. I have an opinion :bugeye: as to going into turbine territory as it applies to me.

I think the general consensus that the day to day ownership and operation of a turbine is pretty much on line with high performance pistons to be correct. But! Here are the differences I see.

1. 99% of the maintenance of the Aerostar can be done at my shop, 25 nm away. That being said, they can do 75% of the maintenance of a King Air, MU-2 and Commander. Problems is that what they can't do has to be done somewhere else that is "a trip away" and at four times the effective shop rate.

2. Parts for the Aerostar are readily available and CHEAP relative to the turbine aircraft. I am hard pressed to think of any component in the A* that would cost me over $5,000.

3. On the other hand, the "gotcha's" of all kind of components to the turbine can easily go 30 or 40 thousand BASED ON WHAT I HAVE READ HERE ON BT.

Point is, the potential for knee buckling costs simply do not lurk on the piston horizon.

I have a very good friend who took the turbine leap with an E90 King Air. He had lots of turbine maintenance experience and knows how to get things done at reasonable prices. At first, he did the "ain't gonna cost me any more" dance and song routine, but now, almost ten years later, he is a much wiser and knowledgeable man. His annual maintenance, including the "gotcha's" has averaged $100,000 per year. Were I to go to the airport today and find both engines trashed on the A*, have my shop completely overhaul both, add that cost to the total maintenance cost I have experienced over period of my A* ownership and divide by the 5 years I have owned it, I STILL WOULD NOT HAVE $35,000 PER YEAR IN MAINTENANCE.

The most striking difference is that I have been flying the Aerostar while you have been working on the Commander.

Not saying that to insult you, just pointing out reality.

Jg

_________________
Waste no time with fools. They have nothing to lose.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 2880 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93 ... 192  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.blackwell-85x50.png.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.daytona.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.AAI.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.tat-85x100.png.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.CiESVer2.jpg.