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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2022, 23:00 
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Agreed, AAC is an amazing resource and all Aerostar owners are lucky to have them. I count myself among those who learned the hard way that aftermarket wastegate overhauls were “penny wise and pound foolish” as two of them fractured. Not so with the AAC parts.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 03:41 
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I really didn't have that much trouble with the systems in my Aerostar. Sure, the wastegates needed a little love, the air pumps tended to go pretty quick, but other than that, she was very reliable.


How many hours did you put on the Aerostar ? :shrug:

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 03:43 
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Username Protected wrote:

How many hours did you put on the Aerostar ? :shrug:


200hrs

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Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 09:13 
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Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 5547
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Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
I would estimate that 75% of my labor for the SS700 that I had was dealing with the wastegates. I had just about everyone involved that I could find before finally giving up and taking it to Joel at Juliet Delta Aviation and having him try to rig them during a prebuy/annual. After he did, they were better, but still nowhere near as functional as the units on the Twin Cessna's that I've worked on and flown.

It's an extremely capable airplane that's built like a tank, but in my opinion that is one of the few achilles heel's of the airplane.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 09:16 
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Joined: 01/23/18
Posts: 611
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Aircraft: Aerostar
Username Protected wrote:
100% of my serious maintenance and all my annuals have been at the flight shop.

As for my present problem:
The flight shop used to send turbo controllers to the overhaul place in Oklahoma.
Recently they seem to have lost the recipe as all the ones coming out of there have similar issues to my unit. (The one that is bad is from OK with <120hrs on it. its never been completely correct since the day it was installed.)

Aerostar aircraft will overhaul one for you, but its $2860 vs $600 from the place in Oklahoma. I'm told that Aerostar will also retag the unit as machen making it impossible for anyone else to ever work on it again :-(

If you want details on how the turbo controller is set up and what is inside...
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis ... 611711.pdf
Is the appropriate patent and it has a cutaway drawing that is VERY similar to the RayJay RJ8007-3.

I'll probably just bite the the bullet and send Aerostar 3AMU when they once again have units available. (They are currently out of diaphragms) Dead cores are readily available on Ebay for $400 or less...

Its not beyond the realm of the possible to setup a test bench and identify the actual failure.

Looking at patent Fig 2...and trying to figure out what might be failing...
Possibilities are
-58 seal surface. (The dead spare unit I have has problems with this face)
-72 diaphragm.
-53 seal plate (actually shaft seal in 53.) There is evidence of oil on the top of diaphragm -72 in my dead unit. So if the shaft seal is bad your going to leak high pressure oil into the upper diaphragm chamber, likely changing the dynamics of the system.
-66 the sealed bellows reference. (cracks or leaks in this will render the absolute reference setting suspect.)

I have a close friend that does engineering development for regulators and valves for industry. He has all the test benches and equipment needed to set up a proper test bench. I'm temped to spend some time in his shop developing a test procedure for the unit so I can identify working/non-working units and identify the specific failed item
from the list above so maybe the $600 overhaul in OK will work once again...

Or even take advantage of 21.303 and figure out how to fabricate/or acquire an identical replacement for the failed part. The only thing I think would be close to impossible to fabricate is the sealed reference bellows #-66

If it were an experimental aircraft I'd have already replaced the entire dammed system with electronically driven wastegates.
Alas I think that would cost > $100K to get the STC for that.
You can see that Tornado Alley tried to produce a certified electronic wastegate in 2009 and has had no public progress since...

To do it right it would be a software driven digital system that then pulls in all the
full flight qualification software QA requirements beyond just the getting the engine part certified. (I think the same issues that killed the GAMI pressure peak timed ignition project and the EPS 350HP electronically controlled diesel engine project that looked so promising for this aircraft.)

One could build a electrically controlled wastegate out of only analog electronics and sensors removing the software QA problem... alas I still think it would be well north of 50K to certify.

The flip side for all of this is life is short and how much time do I want to spend tilting at windmills...

(Edited for spelling typos etc..)


$2860 for something that works vs. repeatedly spending $600 for something that’s trying to kill you? Seems like a no brainer and you could save all of the brain damage? Imho, the only way to operate these is to absolutely relish sending money to Aerostar and enjoy getting great support while you can.


14 years and over 2000 hours.

For engine related parts, AAC is the (best) deal.

The folks who attempt to run turbo charged Aerostars on the cheap, find that they spend as much with less reliable outcomes.

AAC is the reason Aerostar’s aren’t orphans, and that is a big deal.

Periodically I wonder about the possibility of restarting Aerostar production.

Jim Christy and the folks at AAC have everything needed to go back to building planes except start up money and demand for the planes.

I’d like to think that there would be demand for a new Aerostar with iE2 engines (https://www.lycoming.com/engines/ie2) and all the improvements that have been developed over the years (5.5 pressurization, RVSM to get back to a max certified altitude of 30,000’, bleed heat, higher GW, etc) at a cost competitive with a Piper Meridian ($2.2MM).
Heck, toss in rudder boost, auto feathering and a (Garmin) button that will land the plane if the pilot becomes incapacitated.

But the single TP vs the multi reciprocating engine argument has been won.
For owner flown airplanes.

Folks who can afford that kind of money buy a Meridian or a Cirrus Jet.

Their concern about flying at night or over water is assuaged (rightly or wrongly) by the reliability of turbine engines.

Throwing around numbers:
If 100 folks were willing to put down a deposit of $100K and some (angel) investor was willing to put in 10MM I bet AAC would take over the old Mooney plant and start building new Aerostars.

Heck, I’d put a deposit on one.
Maybe two.

Last edited on 28 Nov 2022, 10:29, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 09:20 
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Joined: 01/17/21
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Waste gates,one of the biggest problems I had with the Aerostar. Nobody including the so called guru’s couldn’t fix it .
At Oshkosh roughly 20 years ago walked past an aircraft & it looked familiar. It was an Aerostar that had a turbine on the front & engine nacelles on the wing removed . The performance # was impressive.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 10:14 
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Posts: 611
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Aircraft: Aerostar
Username Protected wrote:
Waste gates,one of the biggest problems I had with the Aerostar. Nobody including the so called guru’s couldn’t fix it .
At Oshkosh roughly 20 years ago walked past an aircraft & it looked familiar. It was an Aerostar that had a turbine on the front & engine nacelles on the wing removed . The performance # was impressive.


Not every Aerostar “guru” is.

But they all seem to be successful in gathering followers.

I think this says as much about gurus as it does about certain owners’ desire for someone who will tell them what they want to hear.

:duck:


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 10:24 
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Joined: 01/05/11
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Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
If you want reliable waste gates swap them out for NEW ones every 1,000 hrs. If you want them to be damn near perfect swap them out every 500 hrs. Factory only, no after market rebuilt. Your airplane, your money, you decide. I know what I will be doing. The same goes for every other part of the turbo system. You’re fooling yourself if you think every part of the system is going to go 2,000 hrs. As far as the parts, pieces of the systems that came with the airplane after you bought it, you’re rolling the dice every time you get in. Thinking that a pre-buy is going to be any assurance of reliability is just plain foolish.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 12:52 
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Joined: 12/17/13
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Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Username Protected wrote:
If you want reliable waste gates swap them out for NEW ones every 1,000 hrs. If you want them to be damn near perfect swap them out every 500 hrs. Factory only, no after market rebuilt. Your airplane, your money, you decide. I know what I will be doing. The same goes for every other part of the turbo system. You’re fooling yourself if you think every part of the system is going to go 2,000 hrs. As far as the parts, pieces of the systems that came with the airplane after you bought it, you’re rolling the dice every time you get in. Thinking that a pre-buy is going to be any assurance of reliability is just plain foolish.


Like Don Smith at AerostarWorld used to say: "If the turbos go beyond 1000hrs, you're riding for free". I.e. don't expect them to last longer than that.

I seem to recall the wastegate actuator was another thing that gave me a little trouble and I had it bootstrap when descending on at least one ride. Luckily, I'd heard about the symptoms on the forum beforehand, so didn't freak me out.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 14:16 
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Joined: 08/09/11
Posts: 1726
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Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
Username Protected wrote:
Waste gates,one of the biggest problems I had with the Aerostar. Nobody including the so called guru’s couldn’t fix it .
At Oshkosh roughly 20 years ago walked past an aircraft & it looked familiar. It was an Aerostar that had a turbine on the front & engine nacelles on the wing removed . The performance # was impressive.


Not every Aerostar “guru” is.

But they all seem to be successful in gathering followers.

I think this says as much about gurus as it does about certain owners’ desire for someone who will tell them what they want to hear.

:duck:


Reminds me of one of the so-called Commander gurus. He screwed people over for over 40 years and even went to jail, maybe twice, didn’t have a license, but still had a following. I could never understand it. Scratch that, he told people he could save them money and it went downhill from there. Hope springs eternal.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 14:17 
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Dupe :doh:


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 14:23 
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Joined: 11/08/13
Posts: 1913
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Location: KCRQ
Aircraft: Breeezy, 182,601P
So far in the Turbo system:
(Lube and inspect every oil change)

Upgraded the exhaust to inconel to kill the 50hr A/D
Replaced a turbo controller.
Replaced All four turbos.(Replaced failed left engine at same time)
Added larger -6 lines and filters to both sides.
200hrs later replaced old tired right engine.
After engine swap the turbo controlledr was really misbehaving.
Replaced rod ends on Turbo linkage.
Immediately (2 hrs Replaced Turbo controller worked better still not right)
(time passes)
Had misbehaving TC cause big power oscillations on 30ft wide marginal runway takeoff...
The last straw....
Swapped Turbo controllers (L/R) sub optimum cold behavior followed the controller.
Trying to get/find working controller...
Airplane currently grounded (going on two weeks because no-one has controllers)

Had the airplane Six years have had issues with turbo system stability as squawk on EVERY single annual. All annuals were at flight shop thought to be one of the very best Aerostar specific shops in the U.S.

The Turbo system is my ONLY Serious complaint about the Aerostar.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 14:51 
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Joined: 01/05/11
Posts: 314
Post Likes: +226
Aircraft: 1969 Aerostar 600,
Username Protected wrote:
So far in the Turbo system:
(Lube and inspect every oil change)

Upgraded the exhaust to inconel to kill the 50hr A/D
Replaced a turbo controller.
Replaced All four turbos.(Replaced failed left engine at same time)
Added larger -6 lines and filters to both sides.
200hrs later replaced old tired right engine.
After engine swap the turbo controlledr was really misbehaving.
Replaced rod ends on Turbo linkage.
Immediately (2 hrs Replaced Turbo controller worked better still not right)
(time passes)
Had misbehaving TC cause big power oscillations on 30ft wide marginal runway takeoff...
The last straw....
Swapped Turbo controllers (L/R) sub optimum cold behavior followed the controller.
Trying to get/find working controller...
Airplane currently grounded (going on two weeks because no-one has controllers)

Had the airplane Six years have had issues with turbo system stability as squawk on EVERY single annual. All annuals were at flight shop thought to be one of the very best Aerostar specific shops in the U.S.

The Turbo system is my ONLY Serious complaint about the Aerostar.

Replace all controllers with Aerostar only controllers and don’t stop replacing. Like I said earlier, everything must be replaced. Any withholding or think you’re going to save a buck somewhere is only going to bight you in the ass later.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 18:31 
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Joined: 02/09/09
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Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Username Protected wrote:
Like Don Smith at AerostarWorld used to say: "If the turbos go beyond 1000hrs, you're riding for free". I.e. don't expect them to last longer than that.


Two of my turbos came off at 1000 hours because everyone in the universe had that same thought process except for two people, Jim Christy and Gary Main. Turns out, those two people were the only two people that were right. There was nothing wrong with my turbo's and they would have easily gone another 500-1000 hours, especially for a normal pressurized Aerostar (i.e., not the 5.5 modded airplane).


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2022, 21:43 
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Joined: 12/17/13
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Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Username Protected wrote:
Two of my turbos came off at 1000 hours because everyone in the universe had that same thought process except for two people, Jim Christy and Gary Main. Turns out, those two people were the only two people that were right. There was nothing wrong with my turbo's and they would have easily gone another 500-1000 hours, especially for a normal pressurized Aerostar (i.e., not the 5.5 modded airplane).


He meant financially, but yes, I hear you. I would do the same.

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Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


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