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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2017, 14:30 
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Being such an Experienced Aerostar pilot now, having a whopping 62.3145926535 hours in type I pulled left engine to 12" on takeoff Wednesday.

No, I do not have an I'm a great pilot complex nor a death wish....I waited till 1500 AGL
Bit of right rudder and bank. Dang airplane wuud only climb at 600-700 feet per minute on just the right engine. :D

AND I was climbing at 125-130 instead of VYSE of 117

Aboard was about 100 gallons of fuel and my 200 pound self.

So far I'd say a proper and fitting upgrade from my Columbia....
Which I just put up for sale :sad:

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2017, 15:28 
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Yes, it's total myth that Aerostars are a handful on one engine. They're benign. If you look from the front (due to small cross section) those engines do not sit very far apart at all, creating minimal arm for yaw. And the rudder is far back, giving good lever. Most other twins have engines much further apart, short lever and try to compensate with having either big rudder or big deflection, both creating drag and unwanted flying characteristics. Ted got it right with the design of the Aerostar aerodynamically. Mid-wings also create less drag and that's one of the reasons it's so efficient. It's prob no coincidence that another mid-wing design, the Piaggio P180, is also fastest in its class.

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Last edited on 06 Oct 2017, 15:38, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2017, 15:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
Being such an Experienced Aerostar pilot now, having a whopping 62.3145926535 hours in type I pulled left engine to 12" on takeoff Wednesday.

Dang airplane wuud only climb[/color] at 600-700 feet per minute on just the right engine. :D

So far I'd say a proper and fitting upgrade from my Columbia....
Which I just put up for sale :sad:


So Brad I was wondering, based on your green musings, how many feet per minute did your Columbia climb at with one engine caged? :coffee:

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2017, 16:58 
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Yes, it's total myth that Aerostars are a handful on one engine. They're benign. If you look from the front (due to small cross section) those engines do not sit very far apart at all, creating minimal arm for yaw. And the rudder is far back, giving good lever. Most other twins have engines much further apart, short lever and try to compensate with having either big rudder or big deflection, both creating drag and unwanted flying characteristics. Ted got it right with the design of the Aerostar aerodynamically. Mid-wings also create less drag and that's one of the reasons it's so efficient. It's prob no coincidence that another mid-wing design, the Piaggio P180, is also fastest in its class.


As best as I can measure it on an Aerostar drawing I found the engine-to-engine spacing on the Aerostar is 14'5". The spacing on my 58P is 11'7". The distance from the props to more or less the center of the rudder is about 19'4". On my 58P it is about 23'8". That latter measurement might be better taken from the CG rather than from the props. Making an estimate of the CG locations, the 58P still comes out about 2' longer than the Aerostar.

Conclusion: While the Aerostar my have excellent single engine performance it is not for the reasons stated.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2017, 17:03 
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Username Protected wrote:
Being such an Experienced Aerostar pilot now, having a whopping 62.3145926535 hours in type I pulled left engine to 12" on takeoff Wednesday.

Dang airplane wuud only climb[/color] at 600-700 feet per minute on just the right engine. :D

So far I'd say a proper and fitting upgrade from my Columbia....
Which I just put up for sale :sad:


So Brad I was wondering, based on your green musings, how many feet per minute did your Columbia climb at with one engine caged? :coffee:


Well........IFIN I wuzza descending at 220 knots then pulled the engine me tinks she would climb round 2000 feet per minute.....fer bout 10 seconds......before becoming a glider ;)
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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2017, 19:56 
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Username Protected wrote:

As best as I can measure it on an Aerostar drawing I found the engine-to-engine spacing on the Aerostar is 14'5". The spacing on my 58P is 11'7". The distance from the props to more or less the center of the rudder is about 19'4". On my 58P it is about 23'8". That latter measurement might be better taken from the CG rather than from the props. Making an estimate of the CG locations, the 58P still comes out about 2' longer than the Aerostar.

Conclusion: While the Aerostar my have excellent single engine performance it is not for the reasons stated.


Well, then the Baron must be even better on one engine. But look at 414's, 421's etc - they sit quite far apart.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2017, 20:09 
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Username Protected wrote:

As best as I can measure it on an Aerostar drawing I found the engine-to-engine spacing on the Aerostar is 14'5". The spacing on my 58P is 11'7". The distance from the props to more or less the center of the rudder is about 19'4". On my 58P it is about 23'8". That latter measurement might be better taken from the CG rather than from the props. Making an estimate of the CG locations, the 58P still comes out about 2' longer than the Aerostar.

Conclusion: While the Aerostar my have excellent single engine performance it is not for the reasons stated.


Well, then the Baron must be even better on one engine. But look at 414's, 421's etc - they sit quite far apart.


The 58P is pretty poor on one engine. It will only do about 200 fpm at sea level under standard conditions at gross weight.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2017, 07:00 
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Yes, it's total myth that Aerostars are a handful on one engine. They're benign. If you look from the front (due to small cross section) those engines do not sit very far apart at all, creating minimal arm for yaw. And the rudder is far back, giving good lever. Most other twins have engines much further apart, short lever and try to compensate with having either big rudder or big deflection, both creating drag and unwanted flying characteristics. Ted got it right with the design of the Aerostar aerodynamically. Mid-wings also create less drag and that's one of the reasons it's so efficient. It's prob no coincidence that another mid-wing design, the Piaggio P180, is also fastest in its class.


It is not that the Aerostar handles poorly with OEI. The issue is, it's unforgiving. If start to get slow, it becomes a big handful, very quickly.... And the only fix for that is lots of altitude.

The reason is small wings and small vertical stab. As you slow down the drag curve gets very steep... Any airspeed excursion on the low side must be fixed instantly or it can become unrecoverable without pushing the nose way down...

The bottom of the drag bucket on a fat wing Seneca, Seminole, or Duchess is pretty flat. Less so on a Baron, but much more forgiving than the A-star.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2017, 07:40 
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I think one of the best thoughts I have had in a while was to ask this group for a slowest acceptable speed (besides short final) which can be reviewed on pages 66-67 in this thread.
I chose 120 knots and this never slower speed has served me well. Several times I have noticed speed decaying below 120 in base to final and either lowered the nose or added a bit of power or both. If I did not have 120 knots seared into me small brain then 116 might not register. I am not afraid of 116 but If I do not notice 116 then how about 109......

Slow flight at 12,000 feet and 74 knots with shallow turns seems pretty docile. She is even docile in the stall, JUST NEEDED 300 FEET TO RECOVER

:woot:

Time for a longer trip,
Back an forth from Charlotte to Raleigh, while fun, has me looking forward to New Orleans next month

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2017, 10:26 
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Username Protected wrote:

It is not that the Aerostar handles poorly with OEI. The issue is, it's unforgiving. If start to get slow, it becomes a big handful, very quickly.... And the only fix for that is lots of altitude.

The reason is small wings and small vertical stab. As you slow down the drag curve gets very steep... Any airspeed excursion on the low side must be fixed instantly or it can become unrecoverable without pushing the nose way down...

The bottom of the drag bucket on a fat wing Seneca, Seminole, or Duchess is pretty flat. Less so on a Baron, but much more forgiving than the A-star.


That is true, but it also gives ample warning by buffeting heavily. It's hard to miss an impeding stall in an Aerostar. It saved me twice during my emergency when the door flew open in stressful situation - I was not paying attention and got slow twice and both times the buffeting made me do the right thing. Not saying a stall warner wouldn't have accomplished the same thing, but the tactile feedback really gets your attention.

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2017, 13:11 
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Username Protected wrote:

It is not that the Aerostar handles poorly with OEI. The issue is, it's unforgiving. If start to get slow, it becomes a big handful, very quickly.... And the only fix for that is lots of altitude.

Whenever you make a modification to an airplane, you are likely going to have to do the same flight testing that was required when the airplane was certified. Aerostar Aircraft (where I am a shareholder) recently certified a gross wt. increase and also certified blended winglets on the airplane. We were required to show compliance with the FAR’s with regard to stability and control, stalling speeds, aft CG stall characteristics during both normal and accelerated stalls, straight and turning stalls, VMC etc. There were other tests like trimming for a one hundred knot full power climb, then with hands off the controls and feet on the floor cutting one mixture control and counting one thousand one, one thousand two and one thousand three before touching the controls. I was surprised how docile the airplane was given those conditions. The FAA test pilots had heard the rumors about the Aerostar and were cautious at first, but after flight testing the airplane one commented, “This is a Grand Airplane.” And, the other after three days of flying said in a surprised tone, “This is a really, really nice airplane.” During power on stalls in the landing configuration, the indicated airspeed was down to fifty two knots before we reached aft stick limit which defined the stall. The pilots could then control the airplane with ailerons and rudder with the airplane fully stalled. These test airplanes were equipped with three hundred fifty horse power engines and therefore, also had the low speed flight control enhancement package which consisted of numerous vortex generators and other subtle changes that made the airplane far better than the original airplane at slow speed. Nearly all Aerostars now have this same system. While the Aerostar may not be as docile as a twin trainer, I believe it is more controllable at low speed than any other twin considered to be in the same class.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2017, 13:52 
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It is not that the Aerostar handles poorly with OEI. The issue is, it's unforgiving. If start to get slow, it becomes a big handful, very quickly.... And the only fix for that is lots of altitude.

Whenever you make a modification to an airplane, you are likely going to have to do the same flight testing that was required when the airplane was certified. Aerostar Aircraft (where I am a shareholder) recently certified a gross wt. increase and also certified blended winglets on the airplane. We were required to show compliance with the FAR’s with regard to stability and control, stalling speeds, aft CG stall characteristics during both normal and accelerated stalls, straight and turning stalls, VMC etc. There were other tests like trimming for a one hundred knot full power climb, then with hands off the controls and feet on the floor cutting one mixture control and counting one thousand one, one thousand two and one thousand three before touching the controls. I was surprised how docile the airplane was given those conditions. The FAA test pilots had heard the rumors about the Aerostar and were cautious at first, but after flight testing the airplane one commented, “This is a Grand Airplane.” And, the other after three days of flying said in a surprised tone, “This is a really, really nice airplane.” During power on stalls in the landing configuration, the indicated airspeed was down to fifty two knots before we reached aft stick limit which defined the stall. The pilots could then control the airplane with ailerons and rudder with the airplane fully stalled. These test airplanes were equipped with three hundred fifty horse power engines and therefore, also had the low speed flight control enhancement package which consisted of numerous vortex generators and other subtle changes that made the airplane far better than the original airplane at slow speed. Nearly all Aerostars now have this same system. While the Aerostar may not be as docile as a twin trainer, I believe it is more controllable at low speed than any other twin considered to be in the same class.


Jim,

I agree with everything you say here. It is a wonderful handling airplane. My point was only with OEI, if you get slow and try to recover with power, an Aerostar is not terribly forgiving in that regime.
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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2017, 12:14 
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I agree that if you were lower than VMC of 84 KIAS and you cut one engine with the other at full power you would have to reduce power on the good engine and pitch over to get the airspeed back up to 84 before coming in with the full 350 HP. With full power on the engines and climbing at 84 knots, while cutting the critical engine, the test pilot was able to accelerate away from VMC without losing altitude or heading. During the winglet testing we were able to demonstrate 82 knots VMC.
The Aerostar as delivered from the factory didn’t have excess rudder authority. During power on stall testing, we found this was caused by airflow around the rudder starting to separate progressively with rudder deflection. Vortex generators on the vertical fin helped but there was still separation starting at the hinge points and expanding in a cone shape to the trailing edge. The hinge cut outs in the rudder were not streamlined with the airflow since the cutouts are perpendicular to the leading edge of the rudder but the vertical fin and rudder have a 30 degree sweep. The solution was to add small parts that faired the rudder cutouts with the airflow when the rudder was deflected then modify the lower fairing to stop separation and lastly add a fence to stop span-wise flow when down below 60 KIAS. There were other enhancements made to other areas of the airplane as well. Most Aerostars have this low speed flight control enhancement system today.
Attached is a photo with the additions to the tail area shown unpainted.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Oct 2017, 15:52 
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New personal best....

Descending into Denver...


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 24 Oct 2017, 16:40 
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