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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 16 Sep 2017, 17:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
Educate me, I thought in my dads 601P the both engines fed from the main/
Fuselage tank and the wings fed the main tank, unless in cross feed?


It's hard to explain without the diagram, but super easy to understand once you see the picture. Each engine drinks from its own wing and the fuselage tank. The engine cannot drink directly from the opposite wing tank unless in crossfeed, in which case that's the only tank it's drinking from.

The fuselage tank will feed in all attitudes until empty, the wings will not - so the fuselage acts like a header tank when the wings are low.


Close, but not technically accurate... Each engine feeds from "sumps" (Aerostar's term) below the main tank when selected "ON". The Main Tank and the Wing Tanks all feed the (thee) sumps.

There appears to be no "mixing" of the fuel from the three sumps, rather "simultaneous" feeding of the engines from the respective wing and fuselage tanks as it flows.

Here is a poor picture of it from one that was for sale on eBay:
Attachment:
Aerostar Fuel Sump.JPG


It's a silly-simple system that is only made complex by the description in the manuals. If there is an issue with the system (i.e. fuel cap o-rings), it can become complex if you do not understand how the system work. It does take a little planning when fueling if you are not topping the airplane off, and/or if you have the Aux Tank installed.

Jason

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 16 Sep 2017, 17:39 
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From Lester Kyle:
Right engine pulls 4.2 from rt wing tank per 1 gallon from main
Left engine pulls 4.2 from left wing tank per 1 gallon from main

Above works as long as head pressure is equal.

If I fill up and fly 1.5 hours then land and add 20 gallons to main tank and fly some more then higher head pressure in main tank will cause engine to basically burn the 20 gallons I put in main first before resuming 4.2:1 normal burn. System seems pretty stupid simple to me.

Just flew about 1.5 hours with Alex Mello who flew 600's on check route 35 years ago and currently flies a 600 as well as Tinker Bell (C-46) and day job of flying A-320 series for one of the majors. After climbing to 17000 feet and leveling out He quickly noticed we were turning just a bit right in level cruise. After cross feeding left engine to rt tank for about 6-8 minutes we were level again. He said winglets were very noticeable in turn stability as well as take off and landing control.

44 hours down.....3000+ hopefully to go :pilot:

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2017, 12:33 
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As other have stated, the system is awesome, but many people over think it.
There are three tanks and two sumps. There is a third sump, which as I recall only comes into play in certain situations outside of normal operation.
The system relies on an equal pressure system between all three tanks. All the tanks are vented to a common point on the top of the fuselage to equalize the pressure between them. Which is why the O-Ring seals on the fuel caps are critical. If they leak, the pressure is uneven (or maybe negative) which can prevent proper flow or even leakage.
Each of the main sump tanks is fed from the main tank and one wing. Each engine is fed from one main sump tank.
Now the fun part, the vertical height of the wing tanks is maybe six inches, the main fuselage tank is around 20 inches. So the main tank extends above and below the wing tanks. When you fill the tanks, the plane initially burns from the main tank only. This is because the fuel level is above the wing tank level. As you burn down the main tank, it will eventually become level with the wing. At which point you start to see the 4.2 to 1 ratio mentioned previously. When you empty the wing tanks completely, the main tank has about 20 gallons as I recall left which is below wing level. You really should be on the ground at this point.

If you want to find how much the wings and the main tank actually hold, much easier and safer to drain the fuel via the boost pumps at the engine (make sure to have ground power).

Lastly, you can pause the use of the wing tanks by turning on the aux tank pump. Since it pumps directly into the main tank, you effectively are raising the main tank fuel level above the wings, increasing the head pressure there.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2017, 16:28 
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It's not complex - and the "aux tank" is an option that is installed only on some modified aircraft. One way to look at it is one "X-Shaped" tank that feed a common sump. Absent any influence caused by negative pressures from damaged cap-seals the fuel burns from the bottom of the sump, which is at the cross in the "X"

The fuselage tank has more of a head than the wings, but once that is down to the wing-tank level - gravity keeps the levels all the same. Operation s dead simple - select "ON" for fuel - fly the aircraft, and they will all burn down starting with the "head" then tanks will be level across all three.

The sump is below the wing-tank-bottoms so when the wings re empty they will drain to the center equally. Uncoordinated flight or cap seal issues can leave more fuel in left or right - and this can be corrected with a little rudder trim, or a balancing cross-feed if necessary.

Other than the mentioned issues - it requires little or no pilot intervention. I'm always surprised how much discussion takes place given the simplicity.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2017, 12:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
It's not complex - and the "aux tank" is an option that is installed only on some modified aircraft. One way to look at it is one "X-Shaped" tank that feed a common sump. Absent any influence caused by negative pressures from damaged cap-seals the fuel burns from the bottom of the sump, which is at the cross in the "X"

The fuselage tank has more of a head than the wings, but once that is down to the wing-tank level - gravity keeps the levels all the same. Operation s dead simple - select "ON" for fuel - fly the aircraft, and they will all burn down starting with the "head" then tanks will be level across all three.

The sump is below the wing-tank-bottoms so when the wings re empty they will drain to the center equally. Uncoordinated flight or cap seal issues can leave more fuel in left or right - and this can be corrected with a little rudder trim, or a balancing cross-feed if necessary.

Other than the mentioned issues - it requires little or no pilot intervention. I'm always surprised how much discussion takes place given the simplicity.

Bob


Bob...
I agree it is a simple system when everything works... not so simple when the valve gave up during cross feed


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2017, 05:53 
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Single engine operation also a little dicey (especially if you are a little low on fuel) because you are forced to fly uncoordinated. At this point I believe cross feed would be recommended.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2017, 10:29 
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Username Protected wrote:
Single engine operation also a little dicey (especially if you are a little low on fuel) because you are forced to fly uncoordinated. At this point I believe cross feed would be recommended.


Tom,

If that is a concern, just use the rudder. Uncoordinated flight really depends on the wing dihedral to be effective. With just a one or two degree dihedral on the Aerostar the wings are almost flat. So there is minimal benefit to leaning into the good engine.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2017, 11:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
Single engine operation also a little dicey (especially if you are a little low on fuel) because you are forced to fly uncoordinated. At this point I believe cross feed would be recommended.


Tom,

If that is a concern, just use the rudder. Uncoordinated flight really depends on the wing dihedral to be effective. With just a one or two degree dihedral on the Aerostar the wings are almost flat. So there is minimal benefit to leaning into the good engine.

Tim


Tim...I experienced one wing tank not feeding the engine at all while on autopilot because the the turn and bank was installed 1/8 of ball incorrectly

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2017, 11:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
Tim...I experienced one wing tank not feeding the engine at all while on autopilot because the the turn and bank was installed 1/8 of ball incorrectly


Yeah, that would ruin your day.
But my point was standard light piston twin training says to bank up to 5 degrees into the good engine. The justification is to use the horizontal vector component of lift on the raised wing to offset some of the yaw produced by the running engine. The underlying premise is the bank angle will make the wing with the running engine level with no horizontal vector for lift. Therefore this depends on the wing dihedral to work.

With such a small dihedral in the Aerostar, the amount of horizontal lift generated by the raised wing is almost negligible. Therefore to maximize fuel usage, try single engine with just rudder and no bank. You will be amazed at how little the bank angle affects the rudder usage.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2017, 12:01 
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Lester Kyle said 2 degrees of bank into good engine on A

To me in the mist of helment fire (low altitude engine failure)
2 degrees means "barely"

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 19 Sep 2017, 20:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
Tim...I experienced one wing tank not feeding the engine at all while on autopilot because the the turn and bank was installed 1/8 of ball incorrectly


Yeah, that would ruin your day.
But my point was standard light piston twin training says to bank up to 5 degrees into the good engine. The justification is to use the horizontal vector component of lift on the raised wing to offset some of the yaw produced by the running engine. The underlying premise is the bank angle will make the wing with the running engine level with no horizontal vector for lift. Therefore this depends on the wing dihedral to work.

With such a small dihedral in the Aerostar, the amount of horizontal lift generated by the raised wing is almost negligible. Therefore to maximize fuel usage, try single engine with just rudder and no bank. You will be amazed at how little the bank angle affects the rudder usage.

Tim

My understanding is a little different. The bank is to compensate for the sideslip induced by the side force generate by high rudder deflection. To fly min drag, zero sideslip single engine requires about 5 degrees of bank into the good engine and the ball about 1/4 ball width out.
If you fly wings level, ball centered you actually have a good amount of sideslip going, proportional to the amount of rudder used.
Got to sum all the forces and moments!

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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2017, 08:10 
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Having flown nearly 80 miles single engine after a turbocharger failure over the Gulf of Mexico I can say that the amount of bank necessary was minimal. Still made about 150 knots on a single engine -- only in an Aerostar.


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 05 Oct 2017, 08:36 
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Not a great view - feathered prop and no power. Yes 150 kts and likely 14,000 feet is pretty impressive.

Personally - I would not have had the composure to take a photo

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2017, 05:46 
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 Post subject: Re: Aerostars
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2017, 09:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
Having flown nearly 80 miles single engine after a turbocharger failure over the Gulf of Mexico I can say that the amount of bank necessary was minimal. Still made about 150 knots on a single engine -- only in an Aerostar.

Neat pic. Bank angle required is proportional to rudder required, i.e. Most necessary in single engine climb, not so much cruise or descent. You reallly need a yaw string to make sure you aren't flying sideways.


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