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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 14:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
I think we're saying the same thing. :scratch:

Each EGT probe is sitting in relatively cool air most of the time, because the exhaust valve is closed. If the EGT probe reads 1500, that value is an average of the typical, say 1400 degree environment with occasional blasts of, say, 1700 degree exhaust gas.

The TIT probe is getting six time more blasts of the 1700 degree exhaust gasses, hence, it reads hotter.

LOL. Sorry Josh, I misunderstood what you were saying, but on the Ram setup, the probe is downstream of the left cylinder bank and only sees those 3 temps. Also, why is it not that way on a Bonanza? On a factory TC, or a TN, the TIT will usually be similar or lower to the EGT's.


Doug,

Not precisely sure where the TIT probe is on the RAM set up.

There are several factors involved.

Example: On the Navajo engine, the turbo is a couple of feet behind the engine. The exhaust system plumbing is VERY long compared to almost all other systems.

The TIT on those installations normally runs about 50 degrees cooler than the average EGT measured at a point 2" below the cylinder exhaust flange.

Why? Because that LONG exhaust system gives off a LOT of infra-red energy and the exhaust stream tends to cool off substantially.

With short exhaust systems, the "real" TIT measured at the inlet to the turbo (where it should be measured) tends to be higher than the individual EGT values - - for the reasons already given: ie, the individual EGT probe is only exposed to about 1/6th of the short duration high temperature exhaust pulses as the real TIT.

In your case, your one-sided "pseudo" TIT probe sees primarily only 3 of the 6 short blasts of high temperature exhaust gas.

But seeing 3 of those means that its "average" (there is some small thermal mass to the tip of the EGT & TIT probes) temperature is typically higher than the three cylinder EGTs.

The Cessna turbo is, like the Navajo, located a long ways from the engine. So the "real" TIT gets some benefit from some thermal heat outflows before the exhaust plumbing gets to the turbo.

On the TN Bonanza, the TIT will normally run 50 to 100d hotter than the average EGT.

Does that help ?

George
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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 20:30 
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Username Protected wrote:

Doug,

Not precisely sure where the TIT probe is on the RAM set up.

There are several factors involved.

Example: On the Navajo engine, the turbo is a couple of feet behind the engine. The exhaust system plumbing is VERY long compared to almost all other systems.

The TIT on those installations normally runs about 50 degrees cooler than the average EGT measured at a point 2" below the cylinder exhaust flange.

Why? Because that LONG exhaust system gives off a LOT of infra-red energy and the exhaust stream tends to cool off substantially.

With short exhaust systems, the "real" TIT measured at the inlet to the turbo (where it should be measured) tends to be higher than the individual EGT values - - for the reasons already given: ie, the individual EGT probe is only exposed to about 1/6th of the short duration high temperature exhaust pulses as the real TIT.

In your case, your one-sided "pseudo" TIT probe sees primarily only 3 of the 6 short blasts of high temperature exhaust gas.

But seeing 3 of those means that its "average" (there is some small thermal mass to the tip of the EGT & TIT probes) temperature is typically higher than the three cylinder EGTs.

The Cessna turbo is, like the Navajo, located a long ways from the engine. So the "real" TIT gets some benefit from some thermal heat outflows before the exhaust plumbing gets to the turbo.

On the TN Bonanza, the TIT will normally run 50 to 100d hotter than the average EGT.

Does that help ?

George

It does George, Thanks!
I misspoke earlier when I stated that both the TC and TN Bonanzas showed a lower TIT than EGT. My B36TC did show lower. I will set up a time to bring my plane up there so you can work on the CHT issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2016, 19:06 
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Hi Doug, nice looking 340. I don't have the STOL kit or any RAM mods on mine but I have had some success running higher power settings when LOP for improved speeds. I have the AA intercoolers on stock engines and have been using 2450-2500 RPM and 35-36'MP at altitude (rarely much above 18,000) for speeds of around 200KTAS. FF 64-66lph (17gph-ish for about 60 deg LOP). It would be worth a try and see how your machine goes. I had to do a bit of baffle work (try a rolled up piece of baffle seal between the rear of #2 and the oil cooler to improve cooling of that cylinder if you haven't already) and optimising ignition timing to get it to run smoothly, but it seems quite happy at higher power settings. With a bit of perseverance in getting everything set up right, they can be reasonably efficient for the type of aircraft they are. Unfortunately we don't have the benefit of nice modern baffle STC kits so we are stuck with 45year old designs that don't cool very efficiently but lots of old shirts, skinny wrists and RTV sealant are your friends. Fly it hard!


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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2016, 20:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
Hi Doug, nice looking 340. I don't have the STOL kit or any RAM mods on mine but I have had some success running higher power settings when LOP for improved speeds. I have the AA intercoolers on stock engines and have been using 2450-2500 RPM and 35-36'MP at altitude (rarely much above 18,000) for speeds of around 200KTAS. FF 64-66lph (17gph-ish for about 60 deg LOP). It would be worth a try and see how your machine goes. I had to do a bit of baffle work (try a rolled up piece of baffle seal between the rear of #2 and the oil cooler to improve cooling of that cylinder if you haven't already) and optimising ignition timing to get it to run smoothly, but it seems quite happy at higher power settings. With a bit of perseverance in getting everything set up right, they can be reasonably efficient for the type of aircraft they are. Unfortunately we don't have the benefit of nice modern baffle STC kits so we are stuck with 45year old designs that don't cool very efficiently but lots of old shirts, skinny wrists and RTV sealant are your friends. Fly it hard!

very nice!

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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 17 Oct 2016, 22:36 
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Bob Thompson has informed me that my plane has been chosen to be the cover story for the December issue of Twin Cessna Flyers! Keep a look out for the story!

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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 17 Oct 2016, 22:39 
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Bob Thompson has informed me that my plane has been chosen to be the cover story for the December issue of Twin Cessna Flyers! Keep a look out for the story!

Very cool Doug - I look forward to seeing it!


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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2016, 09:04 
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I need to see that bad boy in person. How about a north TX BT get together sometime soon?


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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2016, 17:05 
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sounds good Greg. Lets do it!

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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2016, 13:12 
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my longest flight ever!
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N512HP
Approx. 975nm. in 4:45 min with an average tailwind under 10 knots. Total fuel burn was 147 gallons, with a cruise setting of 33/2300 and 28gph LOP at 21,000', and a TAS of 190-195 knots.
Man I love this thing!!

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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2016, 14:15 
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That looks great Doug! :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2016, 14:36 
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Cool...did you try out the relief tube? How does that work in a pressurized plane?

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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2016, 14:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
Cool...did you try out the relief tube? How does that work in a pressurized plane?

it gets used on a regular basis. Works better on a pressurized plane because the pressurized air is rushing out the opening, but not enough to affect the differential pressure. I have accidentally left the trigger pulled before, and noticed no drop in pressure.

ps: I think its time to go back to San Miguel.....

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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2016, 15:29 
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Nice Doug!

But did you show that Black Jack table who's boss?


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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2016, 15:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
Cool...did you try out the relief tube? How does that work in a pressurized plane?

it gets used on a regular basis. Works better on a pressurized plane because the pressurized air is rushing out the opening, but not enough to affect the differential pressure. I have accidentally left the trigger pulled before, and noticed no drop in pressure.

ps: I think its time to go back to San Miguel.....


Don't temp me on San Miguel. :dance:
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 Post subject: Re: Guess its time
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2016, 15:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
Nice Doug!

But did you show that Black Jack table who's boss?

Nope. Went out to the SEMA show and never sat down at a table. We walked several miles a day, and by the time it closed each day I was ready to crash.

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