banner
banner

19 Mar 2024, 04:47 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Aviation Fabricators (Top Banner)



Reply to topic  [ 171 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 19:56 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/06/11
Posts: 465
Post Likes: +129
Company: Southwest Airlines
Location: KGEU
Aircraft: Baron E-55
Hello everyone,

Just got back in from watering the plants.

Glad to see the responses. There is interest in some of these cabin class twins. I will get to several of your posts in short order.




Username Protected wrote:
My take (with an assortment of C421, BE55, BE95, PA46, PA31 time)

You want to haul a load - like 6 adults routinely - on a milk run - Navajo
You want a family airlinerette - 421

Pressurization fundamentally changes the game.




Hello Charles.

I like both airplanes, although I don't actually have time in the Piper.

My mission for this aircraft in the future would be about 900 nm, ocassional load hauler, and on occasion more than 2 people.

I have a baron 55, and I fly a 737 for work. I understand the pressurization aspect.

I had the baron up to 15,000 and did not mind. I would not be concerned with oxygen, although the fatigue issues are something to factor in for a lond flight; especially as one ages.

For now I will occasionally hike a 14er, so I am in good shape.



So why would I consider the Navajo Panther along with the C421 (likely B model).

It seems to me that the Navajo may be more stout, and be less expensive to maintain, and have better dispatch reliability (assuming both comparative aircraft are well cared for clean aircraft).

My reference for that is primarily from reading the posts here on BT from Piper and Cessna owners.



:cheers:


Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 20:02 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 01/31/10
Posts: 13101
Post Likes: +6969
What is the budget and avg trip length?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 20:40 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/06/11
Posts: 465
Post Likes: +129
Company: Southwest Airlines
Location: KGEU
Aircraft: Baron E-55
Hello Jesse,



Username Protected wrote:
What is the budget and avg trip length?




Fisrt off, thanks for all the great posts on your aircraft, I would love to here more.

As to your question, the budget to aquire the aircraft is flexible. I see many of these aircraft for sale below $200k (C421B, Navajo Panther), but I understand the warnings about junk aircraft. I am patient though.

The more important part for me would be the trip length. I would want this aircraft for longer trips. I want to get to MMPR from San Diego in one leg (about 950nm) when lightly loaded, so extra aux tanks would be necessary. I notice many of these aircraft already have been modified with extra aux tanks.

It also would not fly to much. At most 50 hrs in a year, so higher time engines would not bother me. I figure I might be able to get a lower priced aircraft that is well cared for with the higher time engines for the lower prices.

Jesse, have you flown any longer flights with your bird.

How was it compared to the C421.



:cheers:


Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 08:48 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 01/31/10
Posts: 13101
Post Likes: +6969
That range is no issue with aux tanks. My Navajo has 243 usable. I burn 33gph in cruise at approx. 190ktas depending on temp and load and add 2kts per 1,000' above that.

If you are going to fly 50 hrs per year, buy a 58 Baron with 200 gallons. One of these birds under $200k, for 50 hrs/year, will eat you alive. It will be cheaper to buy one for $300k and fly a little more.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 14:28 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 08/15/11
Posts: 2388
Post Likes: +1055
Location: Mandan, ND
Aircraft: V35
Username Protected wrote:
If you are going to fly 50 hrs per year, buy a 58 Baron with 200 gallons. One of these birds under $200k, for 50 hrs/year, will eat you alive. It will be cheaper to buy one for $300k and fly a little more.


This...we run a -325 about 200 hours per year. Pretty good dispatch, but I stay on the MX all the time. Had a flap potentiometer stick causing the flap computer to say "no go" and leave the flaps extended. Caused us to cancel the trip. Lots of things like this that I have to address before it becomes an issue (like this one did cause an issue). Not care free, but not a MX hog either. Just lots of little stuff.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 14:34 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 12797
Post Likes: +5224
Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
Username Protected wrote:
T

If you are going to fly 50 hrs per year, buy a 58 Baron with 200 gallons. One of these birds under $200k, for 50 hrs/year, will eat you alive.


Suspect he's right


Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 15:21 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/06/11
Posts: 465
Post Likes: +129
Company: Southwest Airlines
Location: KGEU
Aircraft: Baron E-55
Good morning BT,



Username Protected wrote:
T

If you are going to fly 50 hrs per year, buy a 58 Baron with 200 gallons. One of these birds under $200k, for 50 hrs/year, will eat you alive.


Suspect he's right




Hello Jesse, Charles, and Cris. Appreciate the input on the cost factors.

First off. I have a Baron E-55. I would likely keep the aircraft. My honey would not let me sell it. She says I can just give it to her. :eek:

We love the aircraft, and it would serve our purposes for the weekend short hop $200 hamburger run. But it does not have long legs (small tanks 140 gal ).

I would also want a bigger cabin for load hauling.

I take good care of her, and I have been hands on with maintenance. She has been bullet proof and has been very low maintenance.





I know that some will say I have been lucky, and I would not disagree. But I have also been vigilant and opportunistic.


I expect to do the same with the next aircraft. I have great people around me to help with the maintenance and I take advantage of that.





As for the $ 200K figure, I am flexible. I have seen that many of the Navajo C models with the Panther mods go for well north of $ 300K. The comment that Charles made about cargo haulers is a valid one. I suspect that has made some of these aircraft more expensive than the comparable Cessna 421B models.

I like both aircraft. I would lean towards the Navajo C Panther only because of my perception of better reliability and stoutness of the Piper. I also like the extra loading door in the back, and the fact that it is unpressurized (one less thing on maintenance).



So far this is my thinking.



:cheers:

Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 15:51 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 12797
Post Likes: +5224
Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
Username Protected wrote:
I also like the extra loading door in the back, and the fact that it is unpressurized (one less thing on maintenance).


The door I can't argue with. Otherwise, for an apples to apples FIKI Navajo vs. 421, you've got all the same troublesome bits - turbos, fuel pumps, boots, heated stall warning switches, etc. I don't think there's a big difference in the burdens of ownership. If you're looking for a 421B, some things to know.

1970-1972 were shorter cabin models (4 side windows rather than 5 subsequently). Rare to find one in good shape, but sounds like it might fit your needs.

1973-1975 - longer cabin. 1975 was the only year that FIKI was optional. Prior to that most of them had "full deice" which most people find perfectly suitable for the same weather FIKI is under part 91. Again, it's harder to find a nice B model because at $750/hr, it's not hard to spend a million bucks operating a 421 over 10 years. The folks who spend the money on upkeep tend to favor the C models for $100K more than a comparable B model. The systems improvements from B to C are nice but nothing remarkable. The 421B is just a big 310 from a systems standpoint. The 421C got some upgrades.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 16:47 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 01/31/10
Posts: 13101
Post Likes: +6969
Username Protected wrote:
This...we run a -325 about 200 hours per year. Pretty good dispatch, but I stay on the MX all the time. Had a flap potentiometer stick causing the flap computer to say "no go" and leave the flaps extended. Caused us to cancel the trip. Lots of things like this that I have to address before it becomes an issue (like this one did cause an issue). Not care free, but not a MX hog either. Just lots of little stuff.


This is why pedigree is so important. My plane came from the government. They used our checkbook to maintain it. It as trouble free as my Toyota as a result. My PBaron was the opposite story. The Navajo is MUCH cheaper to own and operate as a result of pedigree.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2017, 18:14 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/25/16
Posts: 1819
Post Likes: +1381
Location: 2IS
Aircraft: C501
Username Protected wrote:
My mission for this aircraft in the future would be about 900 nm, occasional load hauler, and on occasion more than 2 people.

Cessna 340?

viewtopic.php?f=43&t=130979


Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 27 Apr 2017, 01:49 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/18/13
Posts: 392
Post Likes: +65
Location: F70
Aircraft: AEST601B S-211 B-777
Don

Sounds like you need an Aerostar. The Navajo series are awesome airplanes. I have nearly 2000 hours in them. I have flown the 421 as well. The pressurization is great, but I prefer the feel of the Navajo. Navajos are great if you are going to routinely carry 5+ people and baggage, the wing lockers and cabin accessible baggage are nice, but the compromise is a lower cruise speed and more fuel than an Aerostar. I'm sure i'll get flamed for this, but the Baron is not in the same league as any of these other "cabin class" twins. It is just a twin engine A36. Nobody is going to be getting out of their seat in the Baron and coming up front to spend time with you or going in back to rest or stretch. My Aerostar currently flies less than 50 hours a year, but at least once a month. My maintenance has been minimal. i think the key influencers there are: proper operation, at least 1 flight a month, hangared and based in dry SW climate, and good maintenance. It is also quite comfortable to back and forth between it and a Boeing.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 27 Apr 2017, 09:00 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/06/11
Posts: 465
Post Likes: +129
Company: Southwest Airlines
Location: KGEU
Aircraft: Baron E-55
Good morning BT,

I'm getting up and enjoying some coffee and waiitng for the sun to rise here in CA.



Username Protected wrote:
I also like the extra loading door in the back, and the fact that it is unpressurized (one less thing on maintenance).


The door I can't argue with. Otherwise, for an apples to apples FIKI Navajo vs. 421, you've got all the same troublesome bits - turbos, fuel pumps, boots, heated stall warning switches, etc. I don't think there's a big difference in the burdens of ownership. If you're looking for a 421B, some things to know.

1970-1972 were shorter cabin models (4 side windows rather than 5 subsequently). Rare to find one in good shape, but sounds like it might fit your needs.

1973-1975 - longer cabin. 1975 was the only year that FIKI was optional. Prior to that most of them had "full deice" which most people find perfectly suitable for the same weather FIKI is under part 91. Again, it's harder to find a nice B model because at $750/hr, it's not hard to spend a million bucks operating a 421 over 10 years. The folks who spend the money on upkeep tend to favor the C models for $100K more than a comparable B model. The systems improvements from B to C are nice but nothing remarkable. The 421B is just a big 310 from a systems standpoint. The 421C got some upgrades.




Hello Charles.

I have also been looking at the 421 threads here on BT. I agree with you. If I was to look for a 421B, it would be limited to the 73-75 models. The FIKI is of no interest to me as I avoid icing in any piston anyway. If there is ice, I would cancel or land short of destination.

The door is a very nice feature. It is one of the things that attracts me to the Navajo. The occasional trip down south to Mexico would be with occasional bulky items (don't even think it guys). :duck:

As to your comment about the 'troublsome bits', I agree that those items should be about the same. But from what I glean from those that have experience with both aircraft, I get the idea that the Navajo is much better as far as stoutness and accessing the systems. And it is my impression that the Lycoming power plant is more robust and reliable.

That is my impression anyway. I could be wrong on that.

If both aircraft are close to equal, I suspect that it would in the end come down to which aircraft I would be more comfortable and find more enjoyable to take a 4 to 5 hour flight in once in a while.



I contacted Jesse, and hope to get together with him soon next month. I believe he will be a wealth of information on these aircraft since he has owned both types. He offered to give me a tour of his Navajo and I very much look forward to meeting with him. I suspect I will have a much better understanding of these two aircraft after I meet with Jesse.



Thanks for all the info. Keep the comments coming!!!



:cheers:

Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 28 Apr 2017, 11:10 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/06/11
Posts: 465
Post Likes: +129
Company: Southwest Airlines
Location: KGEU
Aircraft: Baron E-55
Good morning BT,

Another question for those of you that have the Navajo Panther.

I have heard some talk about the slower speed of the smaller straight Navajo (not the Chieftan).

The many attributes of the full Panther version have been discussed, but I have not seen to much about the top end cruise speed of the aircraft up at altitude.

I have heard that you can cruise in the high teens, low flight levels at speeds of 210-220 knots.

This seems quite good to me compaired to the straight 310 or 325 CR versions.

Are these speeds realistic.

Do any of you Navajo Panther drivers ever see these numbers.



:cheers:


Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 28 Apr 2017, 17:10 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 07/04/11
Posts: 1712
Post Likes: +242
Company: W. John Gadd, Esq.
Location: Florida
Aircraft: C55 Baron
Username Protected wrote:
My mission for this aircraft in the future would be about 900 nm, occasional load hauler, and on occasion more than 2 people.

Cessna 340?

viewtopic.php?f=43&t=130979



I figure the 340 range closer to 700nm.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Whuda thunk it - I bought a Piper (Navajo Panther)
PostPosted: 28 Apr 2017, 17:48 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/06/11
Posts: 465
Post Likes: +129
Company: Southwest Airlines
Location: KGEU
Aircraft: Baron E-55
Good afternoon,



[/quote]


I figure the 340 range closer to 700nm.[/quote]



Hello John Gadd & John Kennedy.

I figured the same thing. Plus I would really want the load capability of the larger Piper or the C421 up in the nose.

That 340 that is listed is very nice. As are some of the Aerostars.

If I were to decide on a more personal airliner and decide I did not want or need the ability to carry a load, I would look at these aircraft, especially the Aerostar.



:cheers:


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 171 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12  Next



Concorde Battery (banner)

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.cjx-85x50.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.camguard.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.dbm.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.AAI.jpg.