banner
banner

25 Sep 2020, 20:29 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Aviation Fabricators (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 654 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 44  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2017, 18:56 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 4692
Post Likes: +3454
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
That's a cool paint job.

I also have straight from the mouth of the FAA, on paper, that the 12 year/6000hr gear overhaul is not mandatory for part 91, as long as you maintain it in serviceable condition. That's a saving of about $250-300K right there. This is great news for that fleet and brand new information.

_________________
Slumming it in the antique turboprop world - so you don't have to!


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2017, 20:30 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 4692
Post Likes: +3454
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Here is copy of email.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
Slumming it in the antique turboprop world - so you don't have to!


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2017, 11:57 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 4692
Post Likes: +3454
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Early Avanti's are now creeping down under $1M. Still want one bad. Especially after doing some long range calculations in this thread:

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=144270&view=unread#unread

When it comes to efficiency, this plane is hard to beat. In my example calculation, this plane will only arrive 2.5hrs after a CJ4 on a 5000nm trip, yet only burn 66% of that fuel.

_________________
Slumming it in the antique turboprop world - so you don't have to!


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2017, 12:26 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 07/11/11
Posts: 1980
Post Likes: +1721
Location: Queretaro / Houston / Fort Worth
Aircraft: C525, Davis D1K
Username Protected wrote:
Early Avanti's are now creeping down under $1M. Still want one bad. Especially after doing some long range calculations in this thread:

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=144270&view=unread#unread

When it comes to efficiency, this plane is hard to beat. In my example calculation, this plane will only arrive 2.5hrs after a CJ4 on a 5000nm trip, yet only burn 66% of that fuel.

Just hope it doesn't break...


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2017, 18:37 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 4692
Post Likes: +3454
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Username Protected wrote:
Just hope it doesn't break...


I suspect that this is conjecture. Hearsay that gets taken for facts when enough people repeat it.

Just got another email from an operator now. My question was: "Would you say the P180 breaks down more frequently than other aircraft you’ve had experiences with? Also, would you say the parts prices and the lead times for them are similar to other aircrafts or jets in same performance segment?"

Hi Adam,

I wouldn't say they break more often. Avantair was flying them 1200 hrs a year per plane. They are going to break ALOT with that schedule and 100 different pilots flying them. (Especially when you're skimming through the A, B and C checks...)

I've managed the same one for nine years and it hardly ever breaks. We have never had to cancel a trip. Maybe just one when the owner tried to close the door and the door pin caught the door seal and put a slice in it... :)

Standard parts are fairly easy to come by. A few days maybe for an actuator. We did have to wait a couple weeks for a windshield when the hangar door fell on it during a microburst. Also a couple weeks for an elevator when the line guy parked it too close to a hangar and the door opened into it. Both incidences within several weeks of each other. 8 yrs perfect before that. Go figure.

Pratt PT6s... Very reliable and parts are easy...


Name withheld.

_________________
Slumming it in the antique turboprop world - so you don't have to!


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2017, 21:50 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 07/11/11
Posts: 1980
Post Likes: +1721
Location: Queretaro / Houston / Fort Worth
Aircraft: C525, Davis D1K
Username Protected wrote:
Just hope it doesn't break...


I suspect that this is conjecture. Hearsay that gets taken for facts when enough people repeat it.

Just got another email from an operator now. My question was: "Would you say the P180 breaks down more frequently than other aircraft you’ve had experiences with? Also, would you say the parts prices and the lead times for them are similar to other aircrafts or jets in same performance segment?"

Hi Adam,

I wouldn't say they break more often. Avantair was flying them 1200 hrs a year per plane. They are going to break ALOT with that schedule and 100 different pilots flying them. (Especially when you're skimming through the A, B and C checks...)

I've managed the same one for nine years and it hardly ever breaks. We have never had to cancel a trip. Maybe just one when the owner tried to close the door and the door pin caught the door seal and put a slice in it... :)

Standard parts are fairly easy to come by. A few days maybe for an actuator. We did have to wait a couple weeks for a windshield when the hangar door fell on it during a microburst. Also a couple weeks for an elevator when the line guy parked it too close to a hangar and the door opened into it. Both incidences within several weeks of each other. 8 yrs perfect before that. Go figure.

Pratt PT6s... Very reliable and parts are easy...


Name withheld.

Not here say or conjecture. There are two down here in Mexico and both have been challenging to keep up, as one of the owners I know put it. He's been trying to sell his for 2 years now. Depending on the part you are looking for, spares can be difficult to find, and service outside of the US is nothing short of a nightmare. Maybe they're outliers - maybe not.

But it really comes down to what you want and need. If you're lured by the sex appeal of the Avanti, its a hot rod that tops the charts as far as looks and performance - but you are going to be dealing with a very complex hot rod with dated technology of which there are only 100 copies in the market. As you know, Avantair owns a large part of the operating fleet and they are probably a good source for info and support.

If you are looking for something more mundane and practical, a Citation is built like a tank and 1200 hours per year is normal for some operators without having things break ALOT. One of the best things about owning a Citation is the exceptional service Textron provides on the thousands of aircraft operating today. There is strength in numbers.

Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2017, 22:01 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 4692
Post Likes: +3454
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Alex, Cessna certainly have very impressive service and support. That is worth a lot, for sure. I don't need my aircraft for my business, so for me down time is a little less critical.

Maybe your friend will sell me his troubled Avanti for a song and a dance? ;)

_________________
Slumming it in the antique turboprop world - so you don't have to!


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2017, 22:27 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 07/11/11
Posts: 1980
Post Likes: +1721
Location: Queretaro / Houston / Fort Worth
Aircraft: C525, Davis D1K
Username Protected wrote:
Alex, Cessna certainly have very impressive service and support. That is worth a lot, for sure. I don't need my aircraft for my business, so for me down time is a little less critical.

Maybe your friend will sell me his troubled Avanti for a song and a dance? ;)

I wouldn't say his Avanit is troubled - he loves it when its not in for maintenance. I can put you guys in touch if you'd like....

Just remember - its not the cost of admittance that you have to worry about. It's what its going to take to feed the beast that should concern you! Here are a couple of "highlights":

  • The Safran Messier-Bugatti-Dowty (MBD) landing gear has a six year mandatory overhaul at 300K a pop (anything with Bugatti in the name is bound to be expensive). Think about that for a moment - if you pay 1MM or less for your Piaggio, next time you rebuild the landing gear, you'll have to fork out 30% of the hull value. That's nuts!
  • The carbon fiber brakes have a price tag of 80K everytime you need to replace them.
  • The older P180's you could get for less than 1MM are going to have PL21 tubes and instruments that are close to reaching their useful life and will be expensive to fix or replace when they decide to give up.

Also, the older Piaggios don't have the exceptional range you discuss in your other thread.


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2017, 20:01 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 4692
Post Likes: +3454
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
I think the gear overhaul of the old gear is 12 years, but agreed, it's ridiculously expensive. Insane. However, FAA have clearly clarified that the overhaul of the gear on the Avanti for part 91 operators is not mandatory. See earlier post about this in this thread and the FSDO letter.

Didn't know about the breaks - that's very expensive. And old PL21 tubes are not something you want to feed, but I'd hope you could replace those with aftermarket Garmin/Avidyne stuff. In many cases, the oldest steam models are actually much easier to convert probably than the mid to late 90's models that have the old CRT's. A bit like CitationJet's - easier to upgrade than the later CJ+'s with very little performance difference.

_________________
Slumming it in the antique turboprop world - so you don't have to!


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2017, 20:33 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 01/16/11
Posts: 10020
Post Likes: +5743
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: Mooney, PC12
Adam, you're as nutty as the state you live in............listen my friend.........go buy a PC12, fly the pants off it..........you will save money in both the long and the short term and I guarantee you will do a whole lot more flying.........if those Avanti's were so pimp and cheap to run, every single charter co would have their grimy paws all over them.

It's an albatross, even if you are doing the maintenance yourself, it's gonna cost you a bundle.

_________________
---Rusty Shoe Keeper---


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2017, 20:50 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 4692
Post Likes: +3454
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
You're crazy Penman - no singles for me. Besides, where am I going to find $3 million for a PC12? That's insane money for me. I'm a bottom feeder. :thumbup:

_________________
Slumming it in the antique turboprop world - so you don't have to!


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2017, 20:53 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 07/11/11
Posts: 1980
Post Likes: +1721
Location: Queretaro / Houston / Fort Worth
Aircraft: C525, Davis D1K
Username Protected wrote:
You're crazy Penman - no singles for me. Besides, where am I going to find $3 million for a PC12? That's insane money for me. I'm a bottom feeder. :thumbup:

Adam - its not what its going to cost you to buy it... This baby is going to eat your lunch before you have a chance to say ouch!

By the way, it is such a cost effective corporate transport that see what happens when someone tries to run a fractional operation based on this sexy lady:

http://www.avantair.com/bankruptcy_information.html


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2017, 20:58 
Offline


User avatar
 YIM  Profile

Joined: 12/16/09
Posts: 6328
Post Likes: +1209
Location: Houston, TX
Aircraft: KA A/B90
The Avanti, just like a Ferrari, isn’t for everyone and probably the wrong choice for almost everyone. But they’ve been making them since the early 90’s and, just like seeing a Ferrari, gets your heart racing when one of the rare beasts is spotted in the wild.

Yes, a 4 banger minivan is the smart choice. But sometimes it’s fun, albeit expensive, to be dumb :drool:

_________________
Thrust is my vaccine


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2017, 21:02 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 07/11/11
Posts: 1980
Post Likes: +1721
Location: Queretaro / Houston / Fort Worth
Aircraft: C525, Davis D1K
And if you're a bottom feeder and go for the bottom of the barrel :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:

Being dumb will be very painful....

This reminds me of my high school years trying to convince a friend not drive while he was drunk....

Adam - don't do it! Please!!!! :rofl:


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2017, 21:05 
Offline


User avatar
 YIM  Profile

Joined: 12/16/09
Posts: 6328
Post Likes: +1209
Location: Houston, TX
Aircraft: KA A/B90
Definitely!!

I think the plane is really suited for the guy who could afford a Gulfstream but wants to do his own different thing

_________________
Thrust is my vaccine


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 654 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 44  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2020

.tas-85x50.jpg.
.heartlandsm.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.methodseven-85x50.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.luminary-85x50.jpg.
.truecourse.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.dshannon.jpg.
.metarmap_85x50.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.Expert_Aircraft_Solution_85x50.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.airorlando-85x50.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.tempest.jpg.
.ATCO_85x200_2.jpg.
.kingairdom.jpg.
.westsky.jpg.
.airpower-85x50.jpg.
.garmin-85x200-2020-09-17.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.Summit_Logo_85x50.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.airplanesusa-85x50.png.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.Trace.jpg.
.wildblue-85x50.jpg.
.greenwich-85x50-2020-08-10.jpg.
.STLAir_85x50.jpg.
.instar.jpg.
.avidyne-85x50-2017-11-22.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.Electroair.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.jaair-85x100.jpg.
.rtc-85x200.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.aeroturbine-85x50.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.Showalter.jpg.
.New_Horizon_85x50.jpg.
.Davis_Aviation_85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.avionicssource-85x50.jpg.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.ps_engineering.gif.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.bkool-85x50-2014-08-04.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.McPeck_85x50.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.Edmonds_85x50.png.
.AAI.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.SCA.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.ForeFlight.jpeg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.