banner
banner

08 Aug 2020, 21:54 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup



Reply to topic  [ 544 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 37  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 14:00 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 10/14/14
Posts: 1300
Post Likes: +1270
Company: Corporate Air Technology
Aircraft: Pa28-235
Username Protected wrote:
Always admired the P180's performance, but the noise when one flies over makes my teeth hurt.. Can't hear it from the inside, though..

Ended up with a Cheyenne 400 after I showed a P180 to SWMBO and she said it looked too much like a suppository!



I used to spend week ends on my boat in Alameda and Avant Air operated often out of Oakland just to the south. Never had to look up to determine the type of aircraft flying over when they went by.

I had always assumed that the chain saw/ leaf blower sound was from the exhaust going through the prop. According to Piaggio it is the vortices from the canard going through the prop not the exhaust. The EVO had modified canard lengthened to move this outside the prop arc. It does have five bladed props as well and I believe the blade root profile is a bit different..


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 14:24 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 09/17/15
Posts: 24
Post Likes: +12
Company: goes in Brand X-Talk...
Location: Italy
Aircraft: Piper PA-28
Username Protected wrote:
Always admired the P180's performance, but the noise when one flies over makes my teeth hurt.. Can't hear it from the inside, though..

Ended up with a Cheyenne 400 after I showed a P180 to SWMBO and she said it looked too much like a suppository!



I used to spend week ends on my boat in Alameda and Avant Air operated often out of Oakland just to the south. Never had to look up to determine the type of aircraft flying over when they went by.

I had always assumed that the chain saw/ leaf blower sound was from the exhaust going through the prop. According to Piaggio it is the vortices from the canard going through the prop not the exhaust. The EVO had modified canard lengthened to move this outside the prop arc. It does have five bladed props as well and I believe the blade root profile is a bit different..


The noise is definitly caused by high speed gas exaust impacting the propeller blades. The Canard has very little to do with this issue...

On Evo both the main wing and the canard received small winglets, resulting in a small performance improvement, mainly on fuel flow (around 3% if I'm not wrong).

Noise reduction on Evo Vs. Avanti is sgnificant, I don't recall figures, but should be in the 30% range of impact pressure.

This improvement is given by redesigned engines exausts, providing a different "inteference area" between propeller blades and high speed gas.

"Shark Gills" (sorry if this translation is not 100% correct, but you can understand I believe) have been added to the exausts too, helping in lowering temperatures at propeller roots.

In addition, the new propellers are "scimitar" bladed, able to provide same torque at lower rotation speed (evo 1800 rpm vs. 2000 for Avanti).

The combination of all those aspects provides reduction of impact pressure (the volume of the noise) and a different "pitch" of the noise itself, that is the real reason why it hurts...

Strange enough that when it cames to noise the P.180 is always considered "hugly" while the Starship is always "beautiful and distinctive"... :D

Ciao,

Daniele

Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 14:44 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 4652
Post Likes: +3414
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Username Protected wrote:
It is a very costly aircraft to build and maintain and never really gained traction, I would be surprised if any one picks up the pieces.
Owning one that you can not support may make these unique aircraft even harder to justify.


I think they've taken some new strides in the approach to making things cheaper. For instance, they've gotten rid of the costly Dowty gear system and replaced it with a new Magnaghi gear that's also retrofittable via STC on the older Avanti's (I've come to understand). That was probably the biggest chunk there, as it was a $150K+ overhaul every 12 years with Dowty (some say it's $250K...).

For all other owners and operators I've spoken to, it might be the case that parts are not on the cheaper side, and it might not be the easiest plane to work on, but I've still yet to hear from any of them that they break down more than others, which is often made to be the case. Same in Europe, everyone makes fun of Italian cars etc, but actual owners never have much trouble. Out of the 40+ cars I've owned, the most reliable I've ever owned have been an old Fiat 127 and a Jaguar XJS. Go figure...

Case in point, I just emailed with pilot Stefano Caporelli who's flown Avanti's for 800hrs, and he said this:

"I've flown the P180s for 800hrs and cancelled only two flights, one due tue a generator not coming online, the other due to eng 2 bleed air stuck open. Both aircraft were old Avanti I models. Never had any problem on Avanti II, except for some door whistleing due to door sealing (only sometimes, not affecting pressurization)."

Maybe he just got lucky. Or maybe they're not as bad as everyone says.

_________________
Slumming it in the antique turboprop world - so you don't have to!


Last edited on 29 Jul 2016, 05:55, edited 1 time in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 15:20 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 03/03/11
Posts: 1099
Post Likes: +937
Aircraft: Solitaire
My experience has been maligned planes are the best ones to own.


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 15:38 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 08/09/11
Posts: 947
Post Likes: +749
Company: Naples Jet Center
Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
The pilots I know who have real experience in the plane love it. Passengers love it. Sure it's not overnight shipping on 100% of the parts from Italy, and the 12 year gear can be $300k, but this is a jet on turboprop fuel burn with a Hawker sized cabin.

Shameless plug: If anyone interested in a 5,000 hour, low time engine, recent Gear and paint Avanti please let me know. My friend's 1991 Avanti N8GF is in Peoria and ready to go for under $1.5m


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 16:15 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 10/14/14
Posts: 1300
Post Likes: +1270
Company: Corporate Air Technology
Aircraft: Pa28-235
Daniele,

I do not disagree with your statements, it is what I had assumed for years. I was given the information posted here by Mr.Chris Grinnell Director of Customer Support, Piaggio America. Chris and I were assessing damage to a late model Avanti II.

As for the landing gear retrofit kit, it is a no brainer if and when it becomes available. The kit is not available now and any components incoming will be dedicated to the EVO's in production. When checking last month I was told upgrade kit would be at least a year out. This was before the Mubadala group had announced they wanted out.


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 18:27 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 08/25/10
Posts: 80
Post Likes: +69
Aircraft: TBM7
Quick story.
A few years ago I was going to fly to Dickinson, ND in our 340. It was windy as it almost always is in ND but I mean REALLY windy, like 35+ with gusts to 50+ knots and it was a very cold, blustery late winter day! The wind was pretty much down the pipe and I really needed to be there so I called the ground guys and asked them how "bad" it was and could they get me in the hangar if I decided to give it a try? I go there quite a bit and knew the guys working. They said to give you an example of just how crappy and windy it was, he was looking out the window at an Avanti on the ramp with its nose sticking in the air! The wings were tied down and the plane was chalked but it didn't stop the canard from working. It was sitting on it's butt!

I decided to stay in Fargo that day.

I ended up going a couple days later. When I landed I asked the guys about the Avanti and where it was and how bad was the damage? (I was curious and had never been up close to one of them and was hoping to get a look.) He told me the pilots (no passengers) came out (I can't remember if I asked or don't remember how they got the nose back down) when the weather died down and called home to their base in Chicago. They walked around inspecting, took a couple pictures and sent them plus spent a bunch of time on the phone with whoever. When it was all said and done they ordered some fuel, jumped in and took off! There must not have been any damage, huh? SHHHHhhh. Tough birds.


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 19:24 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 4652
Post Likes: +3414
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Another one shed one of its elevators somewhere on multi stop trip, crew never noticed (or hadn't done proper walk around rather, which got them in trouble with FAA later). Took off with full load of passengers and landed safe at destination. PF said he did notice that it "took more back pressure to land it".... :bugeye:

So it can fly with just one elevator attached, we know that now. ;)

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20120730X73433&ntsbno=WPR12FA332&akey=1

_________________
Slumming it in the antique turboprop world - so you don't have to!


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2016, 02:56 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 09/17/15
Posts: 24
Post Likes: +12
Company: goes in Brand X-Talk...
Location: Italy
Aircraft: Piper PA-28
Username Protected wrote:
Daniele,

I do not disagree with your statements, it is what I had assumed for years. I was given the information posted here by Mr.Chris Grinnell Director of Customer Support, Piaggio America. Chris and I were assessing damage to a late model Avanti II.


I know Mr. Grinnell, we are colleagues... :bugeye: :oops:
I'm sure he will confirm my version.
Say hello to him next time you meet.

Daniele


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2016, 09:25 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 02/10/12
Posts: 5040
Post Likes: +5390
Location: People's Republic of Pennsylvania
Aircraft: Piper PA28/140
Username Protected wrote:
Always admired the P180's performance, but the noise when one flies over makes my teeth hurt.. Can't hear it from the inside, though..

Ended up with a Cheyenne 400 after I showed a P180 to SWMBO and she said it looked too much like a suppository!



I used to spend week ends on my boat in Alameda and Avant Air operated often out of Oakland just to the south. Never had to look up to determine the type of aircraft flying over when they went by.

I had always assumed that the chain saw/ leaf blower sound was from the exhaust going through the prop. According to Piaggio it is the vortices from the canard going through the prop not the exhaust. The EVO had modified canard lengthened to move this outside the prop arc. It does have five bladed props as well and I believe the blade root profile is a bit different..



This is not possible since the P180 does not have a canard. It has a "forward wing."
_________________
Te Oportunet Ingredi ut Vincus


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2016, 12:44 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 10/14/14
Posts: 1300
Post Likes: +1270
Company: Corporate Air Technology
Aircraft: Pa28-235
Username Protected wrote:
Daniele,

I do not disagree with your statements, it is what I had assumed for years. I was given the information posted here by Mr.Chris Grinnell Director of Customer Support, Piaggio America. Chris and I were assessing damage to a late model Avanti II.


I know Mr. Grinnell, we are colleagues... :bugeye: :oops:
I'm sure he will confirm my version.
Say hello to him next time you meet.

Daniele



Daniele,

I will be interested to see what response Chris has. When he was here conducting a walk around on S/N 1200 I point blank posed the question about propeller / exhaust being the cause of the P180's unique noise. If he denies what he told me at that time that would not put him in a very good light. He was very clear about what he told me regarding tip vortices from the forward surfaces.

As for the poky out (catfish wiskers) being a canard or forward wing, I believe all canards are forward wings designed to stall before the main wing.

And how is it we have three Cherokee drivers debating a Piaggio?

Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2016, 13:11 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 09/17/15
Posts: 24
Post Likes: +12
Company: goes in Brand X-Talk...
Location: Italy
Aircraft: Piper PA-28
Username Protected wrote:

Daniele,

I will be interested to see what response Chris has. When he was here conducting a walk around on S/N 1200 I point blank posed the question about propeller / exhaust being the cause of the P180's unique noise. If he denies what he told me at that time that would not put him in a very good light. He was very clear about what he told me regarding tip vortices from the forward surfaces.

As for the poky out (catfish wiskers) being a canard or forward wing, I believe all canards are forward wings designed to stall before the main wing.

And how is it we have three Cherokee drivers debating a Piaggio?


Well, I don't care too much about what you trust more. :D (the smiley is here to avoid confusion about the fact that English is not my native language, and don't want to offend).

I've read something different from what I know, and tried to reply with first-hand data that are public and well shared:

http://aviationweek.com/ebace/avanti-la ... -avanti-ii

do you see any reference to noise related to the fwd wing (agree, it's not a canard)?

Why I'm talking about Piaggio? Just to be plain clear: I'm a private pilot, driving Cherokees in the spare time and working for Piaggio design office here in Italy...

Still don't trust me? Double-check on linkedin, or ask directly Mr. Grinnell... :D

Ciao,

Daniele


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2016, 13:52 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 01/30/09
Posts: 2525
Post Likes: +1335
Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
My lottery jackpot plane!

I think I know who the mystery owner and plane are.


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2016, 07:11 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 01/28/13
Posts: 1107
Post Likes: +233
Location: Salzburg, Austria
Aircraft: PA-18
all does not seem to be too well presently with the program…

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2016-07-29/avantis-future-unclear-piaggio-focuses-military-sales

my take would be that it is always difficult when an OEM is owned by some far away distant financial conglomerate, which IMHO is not able to make sensible decisions on how to further develop and/or market an airplane like this.

that always seems to be difficult..

the airplane itself I am sure would have found a niche in between traditional turboprops and jets, it's own niche..

if one talks to pilots who fly it here, you do not hear much negatives..

however when they brought out the new EVO version, I was surprised that they did not upgrade the cockpit to let's say something like Collins' latest Fusion cockpit..

The PL21 is an excellent avionics suite, now still the choice to upgrade legacy airplanes, that originally had Proline IV, the Falcon 50s and "classic" Falcon 2000s come to mind..

but, I do not know, does any other manufactuerer still deliver new aircraft with PL21?

Even the venerable King Airs are now rolling off the line with a Fusion cockpit..

it may seem like a small detail, but installing the latest avionics does sell new airplanes, of that I am sure..

that alone was a bit of a "halfhearted" affair with the new version..but looks as if they were a bit short on R&D budget..

and, if like mentioned in that article, yearly production runs were in the "single digits", that does not bode well for the future of this interesting airplane..


Top

 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2016, 10:54 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 4652
Post Likes: +3414
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Piaggio is one of the oldest aircraft manufacturers in the world, if not the very oldest. So it would be a shame if they discontinued the aircraft or jeopardized the company. But it was always a pretty pricey aircraft, obviously priced comparable to jets, which hurt it in the marketplace. It's complex to build as it has a lot of compound curves made of aluminum etc.

Kind of agree with you Gerhard, If I were the CEO of Piaggio for a day, I'd do this:

Retool to make body out of carbon fibre - much easier to do complex compound curves.
Garmin G3000 panel - let's face it, Garmin is industry standard today.
Re-engine with perhaps GE H80 or Garrett to get away from Pratt pricing policy.
Reduce price to be more competitive.

Maybe impossible to do if the company is cash strapped, but what's the alternative?

_________________
Slumming it in the antique turboprop world - so you don't have to!


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 544 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 37  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2020

.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.aeroturbine-85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.wildblue-85x50.jpg.
.ForeFlight.jpeg.
.dbm.jpg.
.Davis_Aviation_85x50.jpg.
.tas-85x50.jpg.
.McPeck_85x50.jpg.
.hpair-85x50.jpg.
.methodseven-85x50.jpg.
.instar.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.dshannon.jpg.
.luminary-85x50.jpg.
.Showalter.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.bkool-85x50-2014-08-04.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.garmin-85x200-2020-07-08.jpg.
.ps_engineering.gif.
.ATCO_85x200_2.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.westsky.jpg.
.heartlandsm.jpg.
.byerlyaviation-85x50.png.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.New_Horizon_85x50.jpg.
.STLAir_85x50.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.jaair-85x100.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.weatherspork_85x50.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.metarmap_85x50.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.Expert_Aircraft_Solution_85x50.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.airpower-85x50.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.daytona.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.cubcrafters.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.rtc-85x200.jpg.
.avidyne-85x50-2017-11-22.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.kingairdom.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.truecourse.jpg.
.avionicssource-85x50.jpg.
.Trace.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.Electroair.jpg.
.airplanesusa-85x50.png.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.