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22 Sep 2020, 07:02 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2020, 13:06 
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Unfortunately, looking forward for Piaggio, the Avanti always suffered from being a little bit too expensive. It was bumping up against jet prices and at that level, they jets tend to win out just for optics. And with the times as they are, I think the Evo might have a rough time ahead even under the guidance of a new owner. Now, if they could somehow get this down to $5million, they'd have a real contender, I think. But at $8M+ it's a tougher sell.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2020, 15:48 
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Joined: 09/02/09
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Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA
Aircraft: Waco UMF3/5
Username Protected wrote:
1300nm in 3.2hrs yesterday. Flew over the top of storms. Burned 290 gallons.


Insane. Insanely great that is !!!! :thumbup:


What else goes 350-400 KTAS in cruise, up to 41k feet, range into the wind of 1200 NM, under 100 GPH, carrying up to 10 people, in a stand up cabin, with flushing potty anywhere in the vicinity of the capex and opex?

KA 350 - nope
CJ2 or 3 - nope
Mustang or P100 - nope
CJ1,1+ or M2 - nope
441 - nope
Beechjet - nope
Premier 1 - nope
Kodiak - nope
Lear 40-45 - nope
Pilatus PC12 - nope
Phenom 300 - nope
LS 400 - nope
Mitts anything - nope
Commander 1000 - nope
TBM 700-940 - nope

Am I missing anything? I've looked at and spreadsheeted them all (just ask my wife!).

Terrific airplane.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2020, 15:50 
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Met Mark and saw his beautiful II at ICJ in Tulsa this afternoon. I don't know what the fuss about Avanti sound is. When he fired up, taxxied away and took off I thought it sounded awesome!


Give a fellow a heads up next time, and he may just put a meal in your belly. Wondered if all the Avanti traffic today was some of the BT converts.


Hi Todd! We were on a mission. A mission from Adam...(and Anthony).

Did get a Sonic bacon cheeseburger on the way out of town. First since February!

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2020, 16:03 
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Joined: 01/12/10
Posts: 218
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Company: The Saint Hotels
Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti II
Username Protected wrote:
Unfortunately, looking forward for Piaggio, the Avanti always suffered from being a little bit too expensive. It was bumping up against jet prices and at that level, they jets tend to win out just for optics. And with the times as they are, I think the Evo might have a rough time ahead even under the guidance of a new owner. Now, if they could somehow get this down to $5million, they'd have a real contender, I think. But at $8M+ it's a tougher sell.



And maybe they will be able to reduce the price with a new buyer, a new countries labor laws and possibly a changeover to the less expensive Garmin G3000.

Probably get it down to 7MM? It belongs alongside the P300 in comparison shopping. Brand new, M2s, HondaJets and Phenom 100's are all 5 million-ish (up and down 500K) new but do not have the capability of the Avanti II in terms of range, cabin size, quietness and fuel efficiency. When you start comparing airplanes that WILL do what the Avanti does (and some of course better) you are in the 10- 20 million dollar range.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2020, 10:12 
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Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: Mooney, PC12
Username Protected wrote:

What else goes 350-400 KTAS in cruise, up to 41k feet, range into the wind of 1200 NM, under 100 GPH, carrying up to 10 people, in a stand up cabin, with flushing potty anywhere in the vicinity of the capex and opex?

KA 350 - nope
CJ2 or 3 - nope
Mustang or P100 - nope
CJ1,1+ or M2 - nope
441 - nope
Beechjet - nope
Premier 1 - nope
Kodiak - nope
Lear 40-45 - nope
Pilatus PC12 - nope
Phenom 300 - nope
LS 400 - nope
Mitts anything - nope
Commander 1000 - nope
TBM 700-940 - nope

Am I missing anything? I've looked at and spreadsheeted them all (just ask my wife!).

Terrific airplane.


Indeed it is. My spreadsheet math of the Avanti vs the P300 had the avanti slightly higher in hourly operating cost. Are their parts program higher?

P300 goes to 45 like a homesick angel and trues out at 420!!
Cj3+ is slightly less.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2020, 10:38 
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Joined: 09/04/10
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Aircraft: C525A
Unknowns with Avanti:
Long term parts supply and support
Liquidity of the asset
Cost to maintain

If a person is comfortable with these, it is a heck of an airplane. You could argue that these unknowns are already built into the price of these in the used market. If you just look at all the advantages that Tony lists, this airplane should be much more expensive.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2020, 11:12 
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Posts: 218
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Company: The Saint Hotels
Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti II
[/quote]

Indeed it is. My spreadsheet math of the Avanti vs the P300 had the avanti slightly higher in hourly operating cost. Are their parts program higher?

P300 goes to 45 like a homesick angel and trues out at 420!!
Cj3+ is slightly less.[/quote]

I would love to see THAT spreadsheet. The P300 cost is at least 1 1/2 times that of the Avanti BEFORE the capital expense. The Parts program alone is over 380 dollars per hour. Not to mention the ENGINE reserves. Also it burns 50% more fuel than an Avanti. Yes it is faster but for the average 1.5 hour trip the speed difference is negligible in terms of time. (less than 8 minutes). Not to mention the nicest Avanti II on the market now is 2 million vs a P300 (same vintage) that is 6.5 million (2012). And don't forget the P300 ALSO has a high priced gear overhaul due every 10 years not every 12 and is REQUIRED even for Part 91 operations whereas the Piaggio is not.

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Last edited on 10 Aug 2020, 11:21, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2020, 11:17 
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Joined: 01/12/10
Posts: 218
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Company: The Saint Hotels
Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti II
Username Protected wrote:
Unknowns with Avanti:
Long term parts supply and support
Liquidity of the asset
Cost to maintain

If a person is comfortable with these, it is a heck of an airplane. You could argue that these unknowns are already built into the price of these in the used market. If you just look at all the advantages that Tony lists, this airplane should be much more expensive.

This is true. However there are currently 11 parties seeking to buy Piaggio Aero and I am sure they will continue to build parts as well as airplanes in the future. There are TONS of used spare parts on the market as well (one company in Tulsa has a giant room full of them 20 feet high) thanks to Avantair. Parts for the engines, props and avionics are as available as any airplane so we are really just talking about airframe parts.

Liquidity of the asset is as always based on price. Mine had 2 backup contracts. One that I was about to buy sold 3 days after I dropped it for my present purchase. As I have said before nice Avanti II's are 1.7 - 1.9 and Avanti I's are 1MM. There are not a dearth of Avanti buyers out there at these prices. More Avantis have sold in the last 6 months due to the Garmin upgrade than in the previous 3 years. Its a market that is heating up for sure.



Cost to maintain. Intercontinental Jet charges the same price per hour on an Avanti as a MU2 which is substantially less than the Citation Mustang I was having serviced at the Citation Service Center in MCO. If the parts are comparable or a bit higher than Textron ( :bugeye: ) then costs shouldn't be all that much more than my Mustang. We shall see. !

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2020, 13:08 
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Joined: 11/30/16
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Company: OMALI
Location: Guatemala City, Other (MGGT)
Aircraft: 1967 Debonair C33A
I don’t like divulging my secret because I might create a bit of competition for the small market of the airframe that I am about to mention. (Not sure if that should be in green font or not) But considering I am about 5-10 years from that jump here goes my suggestion for Avanti competitor.

Citation Sierra Super SII.

Look it up... its performance numbers are amazing, hooked up to a JetTech Garmin panel... and you have a beast.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2020, 13:10 
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Aircraft: Mooney, PC12
Username Protected wrote:

Citation Sierra Super SII.



Mike C will be proud.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2020, 13:59 
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Joined: 01/12/10
Posts: 218
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Company: The Saint Hotels
Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti II
Username Protected wrote:
I don’t like divulging my secret because I might create a bit of competition for the small market of the airframe that I am about to mention. (Not sure if that should be in green font or not) But considering I am about 5-10 years from that jump here goes my suggestion for Avanti competitor.

Citation Sierra Super SII.

Look it up... its performance numbers are amazing, hooked up to a JetTech Garmin panel... and you have a beast.



It IS a beast- with one huge downfall.. you have to agree to be married to the Williams Mafia. at 300 bucks an hour for every hour you fly it or they financially break your legs. And you NEVER can leave. Non program overhaul? 1.3 million for each engine. Non program Hot Section? 350,000 each. One of the reasons I ran from the M2. I actually looked at these and they are impressive performance wise.

Its also the same pencil inside in terms of room. Kinda loud as well in back.

There is no question though it flies faster, higher and has better range than most anything out there costing under 10 million.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2020, 15:42 
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Aircraft: AEST
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Am I missing anything? I've looked at and spreadsheeted them all (just ask my wife!).

Terrific airplane.

How about contaminated runway performance? Would I be correct in assuming the Avanti beats the non-TR equipped jets?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2020, 18:41 
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What's the insurance market like for these? Hull value works in the Avanti I/II favor but 9-10 seats works against it. The PC12 market, for example, has gotten nearly prohibitive for new pilot entrants (vs renewals). My broker told me that there are only 2 markets underwriting Piaggio at present and it is considered a "specialty" risk. I would be curious to get some broker responses to this because the airplane itself seems like a terrific value for the performance.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2020, 20:11 
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How about contaminated runway performance? Would I be correct in assuming the Avanti beats the non-TR equipped jets?


And if an engine doesn't go into reverse. How nice that they are so close to center-line.
And for OEI situations too.
And for landing on snowy runways. Commander 690B I was in would create white out and so had so let it go. Must be better with the props farther aft, though I am just guessing at that.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2020, 00:41 
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Posts: 4685
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Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
OK, enough. From now on I want 5% kickback on every P180 used sale as a "discovery" fee. ;)

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