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13 Jul 2020, 04:19 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2019, 22:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
What would be the real world range with the extra fuel?


Likely 1600nm


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 14:20 
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Username Protected wrote:
The extra tank is only available from the factory at present on new aircraft. No refitting. Which sucks.


Extended Range Service Bulletin do exists for Avanti II and Evo (SB 80-0424 for S/N 1105 - 1999) but, as someone else already said, it is very expensive in terms of parts and labor and is very invasive for the installation.

In addition to the structural modifications required to fit the the new tank, it also includes several equipment addition and updates to provide correct Fuel Quantity Indication on PL21 AFD's.

Definitely not interesting for an used A/C.

ceers

Daniele


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2019, 19:33 
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Company: FAA Flight Check
Location: Oklahoma City, OK (KOKC)
Aircraft: King Air 300F
I was in Austin, TX (KAUS) on Monday and saw N50JJ on the ramp.
All black P180.
What a beautiful plane.
Heard there were two based there, but this is probably the best looking one I‘ve ever seen.

:thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2019, 23:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
I was in Austin, TX (KAUS) on Monday and saw N50JJ on the ramp.


Seems like more plane than they need. Most of the flights are in the 30 min. range.

Vince


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 21 Nov 2019, 20:42 
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A bit different, I found out today a guy I know is gonna be restoring Connie Edwards old P.136 Royal Gull.
http://youtu.be/WXe7nrU3kLo

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 21 Nov 2019, 20:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
A bit different, I found out today a guy I know is gonna be restoring Connie Edwards old P.136 Royal Gull.
http://youtu.be/WXe7nrU3kLo


Those are cool. I worked on one in Houston in the early '80s


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2019, 22:11 
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Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Username Protected wrote:
A bit different, I found out today a guy I know is gonna be restoring Connie Edwards old P.136 Royal Gull.
http://youtu.be/WXe7nrU3kLo


I tried to buy pretty much all of them at various points. I was obsessed with Gulls for a few years.

Ernest Gann's P136 that was sitting at Van Nuys and rotting. Connie Edwards had two P180's. First guy was a grumpy film prop guy that wanted $160K for the Gann's one after it had sat with flat tires for 10+ years at VNY. Connie was very pleasant to talk to, but wanted $400K for both of his and would not split the sale up. Nor was he at all interested in any haggling, said he "didn't need the money". Don Albin wanted $260K for his mint one (the one in the above clip). All a little rich for me at the time.

I located two crashed parts planes, one in Texas and one that was a donor for John Mohr's. The Texas one was just too much work to try to put together (estimate was at $500K from a restorer). It's still in a hangar in Texas in pieces, I think. John Mohr's was in better shape and pretty much complete, but would need to get assembled and restored. I thought the price was a little steep for how much work needed to be done to it, but heard it sold to a guy who has indeed started a restoration.

The planes are absolutely phenomenal performers on water. I took a ride in John Mohr's and he got that thing into a lake in Minnesota as small as you wouldn't believe. I was shocked.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2020, 04:20 
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Username Protected wrote:

Depends of course on how you calculate; if you include your dental plan, chief pilots health care and hangar pets grooming, etc. ;) But here are rough numbers for an owner operator:

Engine reserve: $420/hr (I was quoted this as number on a lease I inquired about)
L/G reserve (based on on 300hrs/year): $98/hr - and this is optional part 91.
Fuel (80gal/hr average): $280/hr

And including the BJT numbers in link above:

Maintenance labor (at $90 per flight hour): $141.70/hr
Parts, airframe, engine, avionics: $126.63/hr
Inspections, component overhauls, life limited parts: $190.60/hr

Total: $1256/hr

But many of these numbers seem high to me. I don't think you need $210/hr/side engine reserve. That would suggest a -66 engine would cost $750K to overhaul. Maybe it does, but I think the number is closer to $500K.

You left out taxes, insurance and training which will be well over $100k per year every year regardless of house flown.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2020, 10:41 
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Aircraft: TBM - C185
AVG fuel as to be more than 80 gph. Same engines as in my TBM and I avg 60 gph.
I know your flying higher but not at max range all the time and you need to get there.



Username Protected wrote:

Not a chance in hell is it lower than 2k. :D

Fix ANYTHING on that airplane pushes that number past 4k.


Depends of course on how you calculate; if you include your dental plan, chief pilots health care and hangar pets grooming, etc. ;) But here are rough numbers for an owner operator:

Engine reserve: $420/hr (I was quoted this as number on a lease I inquired about)
L/G reserve (based on on 300hrs/year): $98/hr - and this is optional part 91.
Fuel (80gal/hr average): $280/hr

And including the BJT numbers in link above:

Maintenance labor (at $90 per flight hour): $141.70/hr
Parts, airframe, engine, avionics: $126.63/hr
Inspections, component overhauls, life limited parts: $190.60/hr

Total: $1256/hr

But many of these numbers seem high to me. I don't think you need $210/hr/side engine reserve. That would suggest a -66 engine would cost $750K to overhaul. Maybe it does, but I think the number is closer to $500K.

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Former Baron 58 owner.
Pistons engines are for tractors.

Marc Bourdon


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2020, 20:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
AVG fuel as to be more than 80 gph. Same engines as in my TBM and I avg 60 gph.
I know your flying higher but not at max range all the time and you need to get there.


I was told, roughly:

1st hr: 100gal/hr
2nd hr: 90gal/hr
3rd hr: 80 gal/hr

But that's levers to the firewall, pretty much. You can certainly get below that if you give up some speed. They'll get as low as 65-70gal/hr doing 290-300kts max economy.

I didn't include insurance etc because that's a cost you have for every aircraft and kinda skews too much if you assign to the hourly costs.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2020, 06:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
I didn't include insurance etc because that's a cost you have for every aircraft and kinda skews too much if you assign to the hourly costs.

True but there is debate over hourly costs. Hardly worth debating if you're not including all costs. Insurance is not a small cost to be ignored. The insurance market is really taking a toll on the PC12 owners I know. I can't imagine the rates vs. coverage for an owner flown P180 with a couple million $$ hull value. Seems a small ramp incident with a tug could lead to a many hundred thousand $$ claim.

Also..... I try to track P180's on FA every day. I can't seem to ever find one flying or even with past flights to see what kind of endurance they're getting. I've looked up every P180 listed on Controller. None have flown in months or have any history of flying. No, they're not blocked.

The P180 would be the ultimate plane for me. Sucks they aren't more common.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2020, 08:32 
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Wait,
how did Marc embed 3 quotes? Thought you could only do 2?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2020, 08:49 
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Username Protected wrote:
Wait,
how did Marc embed 3 quotes? Thought you could only do 2?

Editing skills. It’s only 1 quote with use of the “quote” button inside the 1 quote. It actually could’ve been done better. :D


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2020, 10:00 
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Location: CMB7, Ottawa, Canada
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You keep posting the max range table, you might be using max range once a year or not even for a long flight. I fly max power all the time and I will do 1200 nm.
I would bet real world fuel usage is closer to 100 gph block.




Username Protected wrote:
AVG fuel as to be more than 80 gph. Same engines as in my TBM and I avg 60 gph.
I know your flying higher but not at max range all the time and you need to get there.


I was told, roughly:

1st hr: 100gal/hr
2nd hr: 90gal/hr
3rd hr: 80 gal/hr

But that's levers to the firewall, pretty much. You can certainly get below that if you give up some speed. They'll get as low as 65-70gal/hr doing 290-300kts max economy.

I didn't include insurance etc because that's a cost you have for every aircraft and kinda skews too much if you assign to the hourly costs.

_________________
Former Baron 58 owner.
Pistons engines are for tractors.

Marc Bourdon


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2020, 10:05 
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I too have only ever flown max power. Never max range. Why add the hours to the airframe?


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