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05 Dec 2019, 21:12 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2019, 11:12 
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Adam, I'm cross-quoting you from the latest PC12 thread (hope I'm not violating any rule), don't want to pollute more that discussion:

Username Protected wrote:
Avanti came with the old ProLine II system which was CRT based. Only the Avanti II has the updated PL21. But I think one would find that updating the PL21 to ADS-B/WAAS etc will cost just about the same as putting a completely new Garmin panel into the older Avanti, which is what Anthony is going to do. I think that's a smart play.

Kind of the same scenario exists with the early generation CitationJets.


The pity for the old Avanti's is nobody has ever developed an STC which includes replacement of the old Air Data System. This is why the Airspeed, Altimeter and Altitude preselector are always still on the instrument panel.

In addition, on the RH, the IS&S Altimeter required for RVSM operations.

Getting rid of those items requires deep interface to the Autopilot System and knowledge of RVSM SSEC parameters. Nobody want to pay for, and Garmin (or any other supplier) shall be deeply involved. It's not just a matter of installing someting, you have to adapt it to something very peculiar to this A/C.

The same story may be true for other A/C too, but larger potential customer base may let the big players to invest on this kind of upgrades.

It is indeed true that adding ADS-B Out to the PL21 Avanti II costs a lot: but most of the total price is related to the upgrade required to some of the Collins stuff...

Ciao,

Daniele


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 17 Oct 2019, 06:55 
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There may be a solution to eliminating the old altimeters for rsvm flying with the txi next year on the Avanti 1. Folks are working on it. This would allow you to use the txi for pre select.

My understanding is additional rsvm rules that are coming down the pipe will allow it to happen.

I looked at doing just gtn750s and keeping the old proline stuff but it seemed like the txi install was the better resale answer plus it eliminates parts that seem to fail a lot. 15 years of log entries had a surprising number of overhaul exchange parts in the panel.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 17 Oct 2019, 08:06 
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Txi plus getting rid of existing Air Data System will be overkill, also in terms of weight and power savings!

:thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2019, 11:35 
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Anyone have an idea what it will cost to upgrade an Avanti II to ADSB with either Collins or Garmin equipment?

I haven’t been watching prices on for sale aircraft so don’t have a feel for whether those costs, not to mention gear overhaul or replacement, are already factored in to asking prices or whether the market for buyers will
Improve after they’ve become lawn darts in 10 weeks?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2019, 19:33 
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I have been told you can’t put garmin in an Avanti ii

Adsb out is 35k I think?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2019, 22:35 
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We're looking at acquiring an Avanti. I just got a "budgetary" quote yesterday from a Piaggio Service Center:

For an Avanti II (with PL21 avionics), ADS-B only is $85K. ADS-B + LPV is $200K.

For an Avanti I with factory original standard avionics, there is a Garmin GTN750 / G600 upgrade, which not only modernizes the entire panel but also adds ADS-B and LPV. It's $250K. (It is my opinion that much of this upgrade can be recouped on resale, as the original avionics are now VERY dated).

Gear overhaul is $315K for the original Messier gear. Upgrading to the new Magnaghi gear via an STC (currently only available for the Avanti II) is 450K. This gives you the same gear setup as on the new Evo (aka Avanti III), which means improved steering and less expensive 15 year overhauls. I'm not sure there is an economic argument for this one.

My eyes are still watering.....


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2019, 03:35 
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I don't have any value to share, but some thoughts that may be useful.

Prices may vary a lot, also depending on actual A/C configuration. When talking about Avanti II, you may have different options:

1. Going for Piaggio SB. This is the cleanest and more integrated solution, but _very_ expensive! Piaggio policy for supporting the existing fleet is to oblige to update _everything_ to the latest production configuration :lol: .
So, for an older A/C, ADS-B Out compliance brings in FMS 4.1 Update, IOCs, SBAS GPS, DCU/EDC, Annunciator Panel, etc.
While it is true that you get some "side" benefits as RNP LPV, it is true that you also get the "full packet" including something that you don't require (such as SW updates to handle scimitar prop or increased range). Piaggio was working to provide some cheaper options, similar to point 2 below (because, technically speaking ADS-B Out compliance can also be achieved with old FMS 3.0 and non-SBAS GPS), at least for EASA A/Cs.

2. Going for a third party STC based on Rockwell-Collins equipments. Cost will be a lot cheaper, still maintaining integration with the PL21 Radio Tuning (RTU/CDU). The upgrade can be as simple as appliyng some Collins SB to the existing TDR-94 transponders and adding a couple of "smart" annunciators to the instrument panel. STC must be similar to other PL21 A/C. IJSC, BHE, CMD all have something viable, I'm sure well below the figures quoted by Alan above.

3. Going for someone else transponders. Only transponders (as you can't remove PL21). You'll get something _not_ integrated with the existing PL21 Avionics, you'll need to find space for new control panels and equipments, modify wirings, etc. This will affect TCAS interface and operations. Your mileage may vary. I don't have any reference for this, but I believe this path is _not_ interesting for an Avanti II.

In my opinion option 2 is the way to go, if you only need ADS-B Out compliance.
If you are also interested in RNP LPV capabilities, option 1 becomes interesting (and the only one available).

Hope this helps.

EDIT:

The attached image is an excerpt of the Collins suggested upgrade path for Pro Line 21 in support to point 2 above (so ALL PL21 A/Cs, not only Piaggio).

All the Avanti II A/Cs falls already inside Package 4, which set the minimal requirement to upgrade the TDR-94 transponders to the correct P/N through some SBs (or replacement, in case of very old P/N). Of course, costs for certification activities and installation are a matter of the STC holder and installer activities.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2019, 19:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
We're looking at acquiring an Avanti. I just got a "budgetary" quote yesterday from a Piaggio Service Center:

For an Avanti II (with PL21 avionics), ADS-B only is $85K. ADS-B + LPV is $200K.

For an Avanti I with factory original standard avionics, there is a Garmin GTN750 / G600 upgrade, which not only modernizes the entire panel but also adds ADS-B and LPV. It's $250K. (It is my opinion that much of this upgrade can be recouped on resale, as the original avionics are now VERY dated).

Gear overhaul is $315K for the original Messier gear. Upgrading to the new Magnaghi gear via an STC (currently only available for the Avanti II) is 450K. This gives you the same gear setup as on the new Evo (aka Avanti III), which means improved steering and less expensive 15 year overhauls. I'm not sure there is an economic argument for this one.

My eyes are still watering.....


My shopping experience was most operators were realistic about gear costs and planes priced accordingly.

You don’t have to do it part 91 but it will kill your resale.


The full garmin panel is very nice in the Avanti 1.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2019, 22:10 
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Anyone know if this is a possible ADS-B solution for an Avanti?

https://www.freeflightsystems.com/blog/2019/01/23/ads-b-for-king-airs-twin-turboprops/


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Nov 2019, 08:31 
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3.5 hours in an Avanti II yesterday. Why this airplane is not more popular is beyond me. Easy to fly, well thought out systems and very smooth and quiet.

The proline II in the one I was in made it feel like a big jet. The cockpit is very roomy ams the hvac worked well. Flew first leg with a telex ‘headset’ thing that was just a speaker over one ear. It didn’t need a real headset at all. Similar to less noise than the Honda Jet. Used bose on the way home and it was strange how you couldn’t hear anything other than radios.

Was doing 385kts on 700lbs/hr at fl300. Could have gone faster if rpm increased a little. We were basically book. Climbing a little would have brought us to 365ish and 550ish lbs/hr. Climb rates were great. Doing 2k uphill at fl250.

It’s a 1000mile plane in 400kt mode, a 1400 mile plane in 350kt mode and a 1600nm plane in 315kt mode. Take your pick. No one seems to really do the latter though. They fly it low and flat out.

Seems darn similar to small jet speed numbers when pushed albeit with a much bigger cabin. It’s full stand up for lots of people.

Descending you can see the forward wing flex slightly in turbulence. Ride through heavy stuff similar to mitts - no issue. Landed in gusty 30 knot winds and it was unnoticeable. The plane slows incredibly well on the runway.

Overall an incredibly pleasant experience. Laughable these are compared to other twin turboprops. It’s a mid size jet with single turboprop efficiency. Maint is not cheap but if I had to quantify seems about like a king air over long intervals. Has lots of big plane features like single point fuel and heated wings. Systems are all very straightforward as are all procedures.

Seems not much more of a runway ‘hog’ than a Mitts Marquise. Definitely less than Honda Jet.

Had they marketed this plane better and maybe tweaked a few minor details I think it would have been really popular. The full on bet on AvantAir appears to have hurt the type more than helped it.

One interesting “knock” against the plane is it’s zero fuel weight limit. It’s 9800lbs. Typical Avanti is around 8000lbs empty. So you can only load 1800lbs. Pilot I flew with thought this was an issue Bc you couldn’t carry 10 200lb folks around. I can’t imagine ever doing that but if that’s your mission it’s a real limit. I have no idea how this compares to other 10 seat tprops or jets.

On my Avanti 1, post panel redo I should be around 7750 empty which ups that useful payload to 2050lbs. Doesn’t seem like that will ever be an issue for me in my ops.

With a gross weight limit of 12.1, I could max out cabin with 2050 lbs then put 2300lbs of fuel. That could do darn close 1000miles in no wind. Not bad for dragging around that much payload.

Full fuel I can put 1750 in the cabin. I weigh 170. That leaves a good for pax and bags. When I looked at small citations, none of them seemed able to carry 1750 in the cabin and go very far.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2019, 11:08 
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This is music to my ears! :thumbup:

The criticism of the P180 from a few operators I spoke to was that they thought it was short on range. But as you say Anthony, that's probably because they fly it flat out to get max jet-like speeds all the time. When I checked the POH, you could stretch that range quite a bit if you gave up some of that. I understand that we all want to go fast, but even pulled back to max range, the Avanti is still faster than just about any other turboprop or older jet out there. Seems like a reasonable sacrifice. Here's an example:

1800RPM max range a FL390 averages out at around 195lbs/hr/engine and about 295-300ktkts and a theoretical 2100nm range. You add the real world, climb and reserves you're probably looking at 1600-1800nm at 300kts. Not bad.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2019, 16:56 
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Adam do your number include the extra range fuel tank available as an stc?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2019, 17:16 
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Those numbers do not. The extra tank is only available from the factory at present on new aircraft. No refitting. Which sucks.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2019, 18:13 
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What would be the real world range with the extra fuel?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Nov 2019, 19:02 
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The extra tank takes the place of the closet and is 60gal. Nice to have, but for what they charged for it, not really an option. 60gal is pretty much the 45min reserve, so you could run the mains until dry.

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