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05 Dec 2019, 21:06 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup



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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 03:46 
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Also just FWIW, at my home field of KPAO with our 2400’ of runway, there is P180 that operates regularly from and is based here. It’s in the Rossi hangar, I’m sure they can provide some real world data on short runway performance.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 04:19 
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Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
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I am still a skeptical on the price (1.1M with 8K hours and 2K left on the engines) - I just believe when something looks too good to be true, it probably is - I just haven't seen the smoking gun yet. I'll let you know.


Alex - the P180 has a 10000hr airframe limit unless it has an SB that extends it to 15000hrs (they were working on a 20K hour limit before bust). Make sure they have this or can get this, or else it's a pumpkin at 10K hours.

Penman, no way it's a $2K/hr plane. It's somewhere between $1-1.3K/hr.

Anthony - I agree with most, if not all of your points. But with 420gal fuel, it's a little challenged when the power levers hit the wall. Fast as hell, but not great range. To get to good range, you kinda have to throttle back a little to around 350-360kts like you said. From memory, you can hit almost 1800nm in range if you're willing to give up some speed.

If anyone's interested, I have the POH.

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Last edited on 06 Aug 2019, 09:37, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 05:23 
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Username Protected wrote:
If anyone's interested, I have the POH.


Yes please, advann@mac.com

Sweet plane.

Thanks

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 06:26 
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Location: Queretaro / Houston
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Adam thank you - I did not know about the 10K life limit and I’m sure these guys don’t know either. What does the SB entail? Does it depend on the factory in anyway?

Please send me the POH if you can - alexgutzATme.com


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 08:57 
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Location: KPMP & Paris (LFPB)
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I have always been P180 fan, I recall the purchase of SN#13 from Genoa. However $1300/H? That doesn't seem realistic, certified multi crew, provisions, Etc... Not sure how you get that low, though I wish it was.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 09:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
Alex - the P180 has a 10000hr airframe limit unless it has an SB that extends it to 15000hrs (they were working on a 20K hour limit before bust). Make sure they have this or can get this, or else it's a pumping at 10K hours.

Adam - i cannot find any reference to the 10,000 hour airframe limit or anything regarding the SB you discuss. What is a good source for this?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 09:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
Penman, no way it's a $2K/hr plane. It's somewhere between $1-1.3K/hr.




Not a chance in hell is it lower than 2k. :D

Fix ANYTHING on that airplane pushes that number past 4k.

I've also found that with the success of the economy the costs of things lately has skyrocketed. Airplanes are no different. My PC12 is costing me more to operate when factoring in landing fees, overnights, etc.

I still like em ;)

Alex my friend, we'll come and visit and swing by a break on the way down/up. I need some of your cooking.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 09:55 
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Joined: 09/17/15
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Location: Italy
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Username Protected wrote:
Alex - the P180 has a 10000hr airframe limit unless it has an SB that extends it to 15000hrs (they were working on a 20K hour limit before bust). Make sure they have this or can get this, or else it's a pumping at 10K hours.

Adam - i cannot find any reference to the 10,000 hour airframe limit or anything regarding the SB you discuss. What is a good source for this?


If I remember well, in order to extend the service life to 15000 fh, airplanes from S/N 1003 to 1033 included requires early introduction of four structural SB's (SB's 80-0031 and others).

Early introduction means that SB installation shall be accomplished whitin a certain limit of FH (don't remember exactly, maybe before 3000 FH logbook).

Younger Avanti (S/N 1034 - 1104), Avanti II (S/N 1105+) and Evo (S/N 3001+) all have a structural limit of 15000 FH since factory delivery.

Hope this helps.

DS

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 10:14 
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Here's an interesting review with costings shown at the end.

https://www.bjtonline.com/business-jet- ... gio-avanti


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 10:27 
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Username Protected wrote:

Not a chance in hell is it lower than 2k. :D

Fix ANYTHING on that airplane pushes that number past 4k.


Depends of course on how you calculate; if you include your dental plan, chief pilots health care and hangar pets grooming, etc. ;) But here are rough numbers for an owner operator:

Engine reserve: $420/hr (I was quoted this as number on a lease I inquired about)
L/G reserve (based on on 300hrs/year): $98/hr - and this is optional part 91.
Fuel (80gal/hr average): $280/hr

And including the BJT numbers in link above:

Maintenance labor (at $90 per flight hour): $141.70/hr
Parts, airframe, engine, avionics: $126.63/hr
Inspections, component overhauls, life limited parts: $190.60/hr

Total: $1256/hr

But many of these numbers seem high to me. I don't think you need $210/hr/side engine reserve. That would suggest a -66 engine would cost $750K to overhaul. Maybe it does, but I think the number is closer to $500K.

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Last edited on 06 Aug 2019, 11:05, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 10:41 
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Company: goes in Brand X-Talk...
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Aircraft: Piper PA-28
Adam, you can find reference to the airframe life limit, and related SB's, into section 4 of AMM - ATA 51

Ciao!


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 10:50 
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The Type Certificate Data Sheet says this about life limited parts (might be a first start to find the 10,000 hr limit)



5. Continued Airworthiness
Airworthiness Limitations and Service Life Limits of some equipment are contained in Chapter 4
(Airworthiness Limitations) and Chapter 5 (Maintenance Schedule and Time Limits) of the Piaggio
Report n. 9066


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 12:02 
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Here's an interesting review with costings shown at the end.

https://www.bjtonline.com/business-jet- ... gio-avanti


in 2012 :D

I'm most prolly off on my estimate...........let's go with 5k

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 12:10 
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Joined: 04/04/14
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Location: Southern California
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Username Protected wrote:
Here's an interesting review with costings shown at the end.

https://www.bjtonline.com/business-jet- ... gio-avanti


in 2012 :D

I'm most prolly off on my estimate...........let's go with 5k


They must have only used Signature quoting $7 jet A :bugeye:

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2019, 19:32 
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Joined: 07/11/11
Posts: 1900
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Location: Queretaro / Houston
Aircraft: CJ, L17, Davis D1K
Username Protected wrote:
If I remember well, in order to extend the service life to 15000 fh, airplanes from S/N 1003 to 1033 included requires early introduction of four structural SB's (SB's 80-0031 and others).

Early introduction means that SB installation shall be accomplished whitin a certain limit of FH (don't remember exactly, maybe before 3000 FH logbook).

Younger Avanti (S/N 1034 - 1104), Avanti II (S/N 1105+) and Evo (S/N 3001+) all have a structural limit of 15000 FH since factory delivery.

Hope this helps.

DS

Thanks Daniele - this is very helpful.


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