28 Mar 2024, 15:09 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 16 Oct 2021, 00:02 |
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Joined: 09/16/12 Posts: 29 Post Likes: +13
Aircraft: MU2 Marquise
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Username Protected wrote: Is synthetic vision available on the Proline pre-evo? Also how big is the transition to FMS and how does it compare in terms of capability and ease of use to something like a TXi with EIS and GFC AP?
These are amazing planes. Just needs Garmin up front! To the best of my knowledge, the only way to get synthetic vision on the Collins equipment is to go to their Fusion line. You may be able to get it on some other non-Collins equipment. The addition of the subscription for the Fusion adds even more $$$ to the already exorbitant cost of the base Collins subscriptions, which is at least 10X that of the Garmin from my experience. As for the transition from Garmin, or basic instrument to FMS, it's a pretty big one. FMS has been the standard in the airline and corporate world, and it makes sense generally once you learn the logic, but it does take some good initial instruction, and practice. The Garmin is cheaper to buy, service, and maintain with subscriptions. Once you have learned the glass, it is much easier to be situationally aware. as well as feature rich with the synthetic vision. Hopefully the authorizations for the Avanti's to be equipped with the Garmin avionics will continue and more than just the Avanti I will be able to be equipped with it. Cheers! Rick
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 16 Oct 2021, 00:09 |
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Joined: 08/05/16 Posts: 3097 Post Likes: +2222 Company: Tack Mobile Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
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Username Protected wrote: Is synthetic vision available on the Proline pre-evo? Also how big is the transition to FMS and how does it compare in terms of capability and ease of use to something like a TXi with EIS and GFC AP?
These are amazing planes. Just needs Garmin up front! To the best of my knowledge, the only way to get synthetic vision on the Collins equipment is to go to their Fusion line. You may be able to get it on some other non-Collins equipment. The addition of the subscription for the Fusion adds even more $$$ to the already exorbitant cost of the base Collins subscriptions, which is at least 10X that of the Garmin from my experience.
I was referring to something like this: https://www.rockwellcollins.com/~/media ... Sheet.aspx
10X? That’s nuts. Probably why Garmin is taking over.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 16 Oct 2021, 08:49 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8415 Post Likes: +8303 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: Tony - stop pulling your props back. The plane is less efficient! Note all the long range cruise charts the specific range at 1800 rpm vs 2000 rpm is .80 vs .84.
I don't think it changes the pilot seat noise, just the pitch.
Flying low in the Avanti is fun, it really hauls the mail down there and the climb up is extremely quick. I have been experimenting. It is definitely quieter in the cockpit and especially the cabin at 1800 rpm. But yesterday for example the speed hit at 1800 rpm was 5-7 ktas at the same fuel burn. It's pretty quiet in the back at either setting compared to most planes so generally speaking 2000 is where I fly.
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 16 Oct 2021, 08:55 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8415 Post Likes: +8303 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: Tony, would you mind sharing the O/H cost for the overhaul part?
Matt, would you mind sharing the paint cost?
This thread is useless without numbers. All in it will be under $250k. That's assuming the R&R comes in at what I was told. I won't know final cost until I sell my as removed gear. Depending on the delta between what it sells for and what I paid for the other set could make a 5% total cost difference. I used Advantage for the gear as opposed to Avpro which is higher but Avpro has to do the steering actuator. Last year Advantage had a deal going for awhile which reduced the price significantly if you were willing to wait a while. I didn't get to take advantage of that but it's worth asking about and another reason to buy a set of extra gear.
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 16 Oct 2021, 09:00 |
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Joined: 09/26/09 Posts: 1407 Post Likes: +872 Company: ElitAire Location: Columbus, OH - KCMH
Aircraft: Piaggio P180
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Username Protected wrote: Tony, would you mind sharing the O/H cost for the overhaul part?
Matt, would you mind sharing the paint cost?
This thread is useless without numbers. Quote range was wide - from 80’s to 180’s. I will be in the bottom third of that range and might actually achieve that mythical 3-some: Price, quality and schedule.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 16 Oct 2021, 09:09 |
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Joined: 09/17/15 Posts: 153 Post Likes: +150 Location: LIMG / EDDK
Aircraft: PA-28 / C172
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Username Protected wrote: Hey Daniele- do you know if Piaggio will have an STC for the TrueBlue battery they announced this week for the Evo?
Would love to have that. Losing weight at that spot would help my CG when flying solo and cooler starts are always nice. From what I've been told, a SB will be available for Avanti II A/C, at the moment is not foreseen for older Avanti, but a 3rd party STC should be simpler after the first certification. Savings are on the order of 50% of the previous battery weight.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 16 Oct 2021, 11:49 |
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Joined: 09/16/12 Posts: 29 Post Likes: +13
Aircraft: MU2 Marquise
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[/quote] I was referring to something like this: https://www.rockwellcollins.com/~/media ... Sheet.aspx10X? That’s nuts. Probably why Garmin is taking over.[/quote] John, You're right I forgot that I had seen a couple of people pay for the addition of synthetic vision to their PL21's when they were doing their ADSb upgrades. As for cost, my annual bill for my G600/GTN750/650 Garmin databases is in the $700 ballpark with the synthetic vision. My understanding is that the Collins without synthetic vision is North of $10K, and with it is even more. That is compounded by their clunky update process for the database even with the thumb drive option as compared to the Garmin especially with the Flightstream 510. Then the final blow for Collins is the maintenance/repair cost for their hardware is astronomical. I was advised by a Service Center that deals with the Collins systems to not even think about getting an airplane with the Collins avionics without subscribing to their maintenance plan.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 16 Oct 2021, 11:55 |
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Joined: 03/03/11 Posts: 1845 Post Likes: +1819
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
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Username Protected wrote: Hey Daniele- do you know if Piaggio will have an STC for the TrueBlue battery they announced this week for the Evo?
Would love to have that. Losing weight at that spot would help my CG when flying solo and cooler starts are always nice. From what I've been told, a SB will be available for Avanti II A/C, at the moment is not foreseen for older Avanti, but a 3rd party STC should be simpler after the first certification. Savings are on the order of 50% of the previous battery weight.
Lighter weight would make taking it off the shelf easier too. That is such a pita.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 16 Oct 2021, 12:06 |
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Joined: 01/21/14 Posts: 5098 Post Likes: +3635 Company: FAA Flight Check Location: Oklahoma City, OK (KOKC)
Aircraft: King Air 300F/C90GTx
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Our PL21 equipped airplanes have SVS so it is certainly possible. PL21/FMS-3000 equipped.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 16 Oct 2021, 14:32 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6322 Post Likes: +5520 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote: Then the final blow for Collins is the maintenance/repair cost for their hardware is astronomical. I was advised by a Service Center that deals with the Collins systems to not even think about getting an airplane with the Collins avionics without subscribing to their maintenance plan. A forum member that has a jet with the PL21 in it says he pays $16K a year for the maintenance plan and that ends up being much cheaper than rolling the dice as anything that breaks or needs replacement is $10K+ to change.
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 16 Oct 2021, 16:59 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8415 Post Likes: +8303 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: Then the final blow for Collins is the maintenance/repair cost for their hardware is astronomical. I was advised by a Service Center that deals with the Collins systems to not even think about getting an airplane with the Collins avionics without subscribing to their maintenance plan. A forum member that has a jet with the PL21 in it says he pays $16K a year for the maintenance plan and that ends up being much cheaper than rolling the dice as anything that breaks or needs replacement is $10K+ to change.
They have 3 different plans at varying prices. My first use was this month. They have an update to the GPS system which is +\- $48k which was covered. Not sure if I really needed or not but I suppose it's good to get something for the money. I agree that is more expensive than it should be. Far more expensive than Garmin to operate and buy subscriptions for. But it is a robust FMS. And it's not something to pass on flying the plane for. It's just one small piece of the total picture.
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 17 Oct 2021, 03:47 |
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Joined: 08/05/16 Posts: 3097 Post Likes: +2222 Company: Tack Mobile Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
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Username Protected wrote: They have 3 different plans at varying prices. My first use was this month. They have an update to the GPS system which is +\- $48k which was covered. Not sure if I really needed or not but I suppose it's good to get something for the money. I agree that is more expensive than it should be. Far more expensive than Garmin to operate and buy subscriptions for. But it is a robust FMS. And it's not something to pass on flying the plane for. It's just one small piece of the total picture. What GPS update could cost that much? I assume the old system was also WAAS? These seem like airliner numbers.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 17 Oct 2021, 04:53 |
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Joined: 08/24/13 Posts: 8406 Post Likes: +3662 Company: Aviation Tools / CCX Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
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Username Protected wrote: They have 3 different plans at varying prices. My first use was this month. They have an update to the GPS system which is +\- $48k which was covered. Not sure if I really needed or not but I suppose it's good to get something for the money. I agree that is more expensive than it should be. Far more expensive than Garmin to operate and buy subscriptions for. But it is a robust FMS. And it's not something to pass on flying the plane for. It's just one small piece of the total picture. What GPS update could cost that much? I assume the old system was also WAAS? These seem like airliner numbers.
They are corporate jet numbers
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