That's interesting about the ice Brad. We came through a layer in the decent around 11,000ish and got the ice caution light. Looked at the probe and nothing. Switched everything on and you could see a little on the leading edge of forward wing and then we were out. About this time last year I had about a half inch of clear in the descent and the right windshield couldn't keep up. That was exciting. $41,770.40 for a new circuit board controller and all's good again. Ouch!

Two recent trips total 5793 miles not including departure/arrival extra distance.
I do not normally keep up with cost but friend was paying for 1/2 fuel.
$7630 spent on fuel for 19.4 hours on hobbs.
$393 per hour for fuel in this bird makes me smile.

Headwind hurts more than tailwind helps if both were equal as you spend more time in headwind.

80-90 knot average headwind going to Montana then California

40 knot average tailwind coming back yesterday.

Guessing charter for 4 people and nearly 1200 pounds for 16 hours flight time (Large cabin jet =faster) would run north of 100K.

I love my Ferrari
More important-Wife loves OUR Ferrari

Is the Citabria getting any love? if it's neglected I would be happy to step up and do some loops and rolls in it for you. Free of charge of course

Isaac,

You must come down. Citabria is feeling like a beloved pet after couple has first child.
1-2 times per month is not enough tailwheel dancing.

tempting - only a 2.5 hour flight. If I come visit I might make you sell it to me. Haven't been upside down in an airplane on purpose in a while

Ok guys, I tuned this thread out quite a while ago, but have started thinking about next airplane, toying with jet thoughts that seem not quite right, and have now tuned the thread back in… you guys suck, you’ve sold off all the inventory for those of us too slow to jump on it!

Obviously I’d be another MU2-> P180 transition if I did it. Couple questions, now that a few of you have had them a little while.

- short field capability, how bad is it? Home base has 2600’ runway. Does reverse work well? It seems like it’s be better than small jet in that regard, but also sounds like you guys are not pressing the short field. Would it work?

- along those lines, what’s Vref? Vr? Sounds like higher than MU2?

- short trips - I have a frequent flight KSQL-KTRK ~150nm, and given airspace issues it’s usually easiest/quickest to do VFR when able. Mits does this well. Would P180 be, well, at least “acceptable” for such a mission? Would short cycles get me in trouble for some reason?

- maintenance cycle, is it mostly hours, calendar, or both? I think I saw a reference to 200 hour cycles but also 6 &12 month calendar items? What’s up with those? Are they easy with a local non-piaggio mechanic? Or are they something you need to get to the specialty shop for?

- anyone have any feedback on Mather Aviation, who appears to be a service center here on the west coast? Am familiar with IJSC of course, and overall like those guys, but it’d be nice to have an option that wasn’t 1200nm away.

- appears training is only FSI Palm beach. How have insurers treated you, are they requiring sim training? My MU2 insurance required only sim training this year, so I couldn’t alternate between Simcom and in-aircraft.

- Any useful insight on how hard insurance has been?

A few quick responses here.

- short field capability, how bad is it? Home base has 2600’ runway. Does reverse work well? It seems like it’s be better than small jet in that regard, but also sounds like you guys are not pressing the short field. Would it work? Feels like a non-starter. In the beginning of this thread there is talk of someone basing at a similar length field. That would not be for me. Anthony has better experience here than I

- along those lines, what’s Vref? Vr? Sounds like higher than MU2? 120-125 knots

- appears training is only FSI Palm beach. How have insurers treated you, are they requiring sim training? My MU2 insurance required only sim training this year, so I couldn’t alternate between Simcom and in-aircraft. My insurer allowed in airplane training. Simms Aviation - Don Simms

Any useful insight on how hard insurance has been? More insurable than Mitts. More coverage at lower cost.

Jon,

To me only the first question needs to be answered and the answer is NO on 2600 feet home runway.
I had zero turbine time getting into this Avanti so I did not push short field for a bit.
I do enjoy getting the most out of my airplanes so I have been pushing shorter and shorter knowing I was using up a bit of my 80K carbon brake pads

Landed and stopped within 2500 feet about a month ago. Sure, some long time pro in Italy landed in 1500-1600 feet in video Adam sent...so what.

My shortest runway I will plan for a destination is around 3,000 feet which will also require I be light and no trees or obstructions. I have not landed at a 3,000 foot runway yet.

At MID weights you will be wheels up in about 2500 feet if you wait until she is ready to fly.
You can pull her off at 103 but she is a bit sluggish this early.

Throw balance field out the window.

On long distance flights I do not even consider fuel stops if runway is below 4500 feet.

Doug R's admonishment is a constant reminder.
Risk x exposure.

2600 foot home base= constant risk x constant exposure x constant need of A+ game x
cost of expensive brakes too often.

I went in and out of a 3300 field recently. The plane does it fine but you have to be on your game. San Carlos would intimidate me, but I also flew MU2 for years before I was comfy going out of a runway like that. It's an acquired taste!

That said, it really wasn't that different than mu2 on a similar length runway, so you are likely already used to the sight picture - the speeds are virtually the same. It floats more than the MU2 if you are not careful. Short runway flown to book VFEF with heavy braking I think it stops better than mu2 but thats b/c brakes are better, reverse is weaker and slower to engage. On a wet runway, mu2 wins everytime. Previous point about brake cost true - however, built into overall ownership cost it's not bad and there is an STC for better brakes that are cheaper in the long run you could swap too. Short field takeoff requires full torque at brake release - issue with this is carbon brakes don't like to hold that unless you drag them while taxiing to warm them up.

There is a guy that flies one out of PAO - contact me and I can connect you to him. He is the person to talk to as he does exactly what you are looking to do.

All that said, what changed hangar wise for you? P180 definitely will not fit in your T hangar!

Your other questions: you can do in airplane training if you don't want to do sim. Maint schedule is better than mu2 for me - basically a 1yr/200 and all the other inspections multiply off that. Fly much more or less than 200hr per year and it could get annoying. 6 month inspection is something almost any A&P can do if you get them maint info.

Similar fleet size to Mu2, most maint is in middle of country. Seems to cost the same per mile so far as mu2 but that is without big maint events. Burns a little more gas on short trips and a little less on long ones. Book is very accurate, at least for me, PM and I can share a bunch of docs with you. Easier to fly overall, lower workload, easier on one engine, much less trimming required. Interior noise level not comparable at all. VMO 260, Va slightly higher than Mu2, rides about the same in turb, slightly more tail wag.

Having been based at SQL for a number of years, it's a coin flip which plane (solitaire or p180) I would rather run out of there. Probably MU2 b/c it was easier to stop short and generally handles better on the ground, but lately I have been trying different techniques with p180 (read:flying exact book speeds based on weight vs rounding high, transitioning to reverse faster, not just using beta, actually using brakes on landing) and it stops just about the same. Piaggio is much more precise in pattern handling and trimming to VREF on final, which given how tight things can be getting into SQL could be nice.

All that said, watching CJs go out of SQL I would probably lean towards one of those at SQL b/c takeoff performance is so darn good and their approach speeds are so low.

Jon - how painful would it be to base out of Hayward or Half Moon Bay? I know traffic is insane up there, but how much would it add to your drive?

Yeah, I know of him, I need to wander by there and chat with him.


I know! But nothing faster than the Mits will! Still contemplating how much I’m willing to spend in that regard.


Yeah, that remains a possibility. But as you know, they aren’t as spacious as the Piaggio, which would be nice for sure, plus the relative fuel economy.

I am most worried about SQL length, hangar (problem for all my possible step ups), and for P180 having inconvenient maintenance - it’d be nice to get something significantly more convenient than what I do with Mits. Citation service network seems pretty large.

HMB is a non starter, and HWD is a bridge. Sometimes no biggie, sometimes a problem, depends on timing. Probably adds 20-40 minutes to my drive to the airport, which is currently 10 minutes. The convenience is compelling for many reasons.

The Maint on citations is much easier and better. I don’t think Piaggio is bad if you are an involved owner. I would put it on par with Mits if not slightly better bc pt6 is more common.

HMB is a non starter, and HWD is a bridge. Sometimes no biggie, sometimes a problem, depends on timing. Probably adds 20-40 minutes to my drive to the airport, which is currently 10 minutes. The convenience is compelling for many reasons.

HMB is a non starter, and HWD is a bridge. Sometimes no biggie, sometimes a problem, depends on timing. Probably adds 20-40 minutes to my drive to the airport, which is currently 10 minutes. The convenience is compelling for many reasons.