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28 Mar 2024, 04:59 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2022, 17:33 
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Aircraft: Piaggio P180, TTx
Username Protected wrote:
Well I sold mine last year after 1 year of ownership. My thoughts for those thinking of one.


6. It absolutely SUCKS above 370.... I know a lot of people will post pictures of themselves here at 400 and say WTF? but trust me as a owner of a II with great motors it's not a high altitude airplane. Above 6 degrees ISA its service ceiling with any kind of load is 350. You heard it hear first.

Mark


Mark,

I'd take exception to this one. I think it needs to be thought about in context. Yes, the airplane slows down as you get higher but it's not terrible. Yesterday at FL400 I was doing 355 at +7. BUT, I flew 1250NM nonstop into headwinds and landed with 550lbs. Do that in another turbo prop. Do that in most light jets. And the cabin was 6k. Do that in practically anything.

That's my milk run. If I could find something else that would do it better or faster for anything close to the same opex and capex I'd be on it.

The plane has its quirks as you point out but overall it outperforms anything else out there in its class.


Maybe yours does but mine would barely get to 390 without hanging on the props at 340 knots.... and it felt terribly unstable at that altitude. I damn sure wouldn't try going over a T storm with it. Other than that I completely agree as to its capabilities.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2022, 18:15 
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That’s really odd Mark. I have clicked off AP at FL400 before and it stayed right on flight director with no issue.

Regarding high altitude ops - don’t the small Citations suffer a lot at ISA +10 above FL350?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2022, 18:18 
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Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
Mark,

You may just have a more sensitive butt than I do. Sensitive butts are really useful flying biplanes. :peace:

I wouldn't be too keen flying over the top of a T storm at 40 or 41 either. Not enough margin to get out of the way. But seeing them is certainly easier. And having the option to manage fuel, wind and distance is certainly nice. I've found myself at those altitudes in the P180 a number of times. But I also have my O2 mask in my lap. Not much time to react up there with a failure.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2022, 08:54 
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91.211 (and its 135 and 121 equivalents) are probably the most violated rule in the fars.
If I owned something that operated above FL 350, id really want to have the
avionics/autopilot do an automatic emergency descent for cabin pressure loss.
Do any of the aftermarket G-600TXI etc .. do this?
Do the stock avionics in any of the Piaggo's do this?

Time of useful consciousness is short and unlike holding your breath you have no warning or feeling of being out of air before loss of consciousness.

The incredible reliability of aircraft in this class are indicated by the fact Payne Stewarts crash seems to be a rare and notable exception.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2022, 10:40 
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In theory, on older Piaggio’s you have two indications of lower cabin pressure besides gauge.

Over 9.5k in cabin alt and master caution barks at you and a light on on annunciation panel goes on. It’s hard to miss.

If that failed or you were asleep at the wheel, when cabin altitude goes above 13k, the outflow valves shut automatically (I believe this would happen in a total electrical failure too) which would allow the cabin to maintain some pressure with most small leaks, say, a door seal blowing out. If engines are spinning and bleeds are open, the cabin will keep getting pumped up.

I don’t think Tony was violating any FARs, given he usually has a another guy up front with him and the mask requirement only applies to single pilot.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2022, 10:58 
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Our GFC600 / G600 install has a pressure sensor. If cabin loses pressure, it will turn 90 degrees left and descend to 15,000 ft at mmo. Hopefully pilot (or someone) can pull back throttles otherwise this would be a rather slow descent from 350, maybe 800fpm at most. With the throttles at flight idle the plane drops like a brick, I have never bombed down from up there but I would think 7000fpm plus. This is in a 441.

It will also yell at you, and the annunciator which uses a different sensor will be also. You’d really have to have a catastrophic loss of pressure like a blown window to not have enough awareness to at least yank the throttles before passing out, even then it only takes a second to do that.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2022, 11:57 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don’t think Tony was violating any FARs, given he usually has a another guy up front with him and the mask requirement only applies to single pilot.


That is correct I do fly with another pilot and have not violated those regs. However, I think it's worth pointing out the FAR here as I suspect it is routinely violated as Paul points out. The only way to know, I suppose, is post accident. Above 18k feet (and sometimes below) hypoxia is a very serious deal and I think that pilot training per books is good but inadequate. Chamber rides are really helpful and eye opening. I've done two. It's also eye opening to see how fast the time of useful consciousness degrades for each additional 1,000 feet. It's really useful to practice mask donning because, while it's fairly easy, when its for real the stress makes everything harder. Better to have some muscle memory. I've had a failure at 31k in my TBM and it was instructive.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2022, 12:09 
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Had interesting co pilot story over weekend at st simons. Guy has a sr22 2 yrs old. He’s ppl IFR rated. Has his cirrus with a management company and hires a copilot for every single flight. Won’t pay hangar fees at destination airports so he sends plane home with copilot after he arrives. Then has pilot come fetch him and wife partner etc when time to come home.

This all came out when he said he didn’t have the payload for his golf clubs I’m like what do you mean, he’s skinny she’s skinny, 2 night stay….
For this trip he drove for almost 5 hours because couldn’t take his wife’s luggage and his golf clubs AND the copilot. Not enough useful load for the copilot.

I couldn’t wrap my head around it.
Hourly cost of the plane and copilot ferry flights had to far outweigh hanagar fees. Then the useful load problems?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2022, 13:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
I couldn’t wrap my head around it.
Hourly cost of the plane and copilot ferry flights had to far outweigh hanagar fees. Then the useful load problems?


Sounds like the hangar fees are just the excuse and he doesn't like flying alone (which is fine). That said flying into resort airports they charge protection money if you touch their ramp which rivals the day rate for a pro pilot for a turboprop. I can't afford to have the plane fly home and back to pick me up just on principal, but I've thought about it.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2022, 09:00 
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If anyone is interested, I know of an off market 2003 Piaggio Avanti I with full garmin panel. Beautiful plane and getting all big inspections done. Gear recent. Maintained by factory service center till 2017. 150 hours since hots, but engines are due fairly soon for overhaul. Part 91 you could keep going though. PM me if you want a connection to sellers.

Price seems quite reasonable. Pretty much the newest Piaggio you can get with the full garmin rig. Someone is going to get an awesome plane for WAAAAAAY less than a CJ. Low TT and not an Avantair bird.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2022, 08:32 
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Well my prop nic has turned into needing a whole new one. Corrosion was found when they started the overhaul and it's beyond spec and was condemned.

Time to find out how bad it will be finding parts...so she is down for the count again.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2022, 10:43 
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Well my prop nic has turned into needing a whole new one. Corrosion was found when they started the overhaul and it's beyond spec and was condemned.

Time to find out how bad it will be finding parts...so she is down for the count again.

Ooof. Sorry to hear that Matt.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2022, 14:37 
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Well my prop nic has turned into needing a whole new one. Corrosion was found when they started the overhaul and it's beyond spec and was condemned.

Time to find out how bad it will be finding parts...so she is down for the count again.


Just one blade, or did they condemn the whole prop?

I have to say after a few dealings with prop shops and manufacturers, my trust is diminished. Almost all prop shops have a service deal with the manufacturer where they will take the most severe outlook on props, per manufacturers decree. I've had at least two prop shops wanting to force me into full blade grind down overhauls (which is a sure way to have them fail next time) on almost new blades. Maybe it's the same with the "corrosion" find?

I would get a second opinion from a prop shop that does not have affiliations with any manufacturers or are resellers.

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Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 02 Mar 2022, 20:24 
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The whole prop...all the blades and the hubs.
Attachment:
B7E1605D.JPG


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 02 Mar 2022, 23:25 
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Not an Avanti owner but the other week one flew over my house headed north and I was in a conference call. I actually paused and listened because they sound so unique, and I consider myself lucky I live under the ORD shelf. Many planes get routed right over me because im not far west from the DPA VOR. It eventually landed at PWK, wish it was going to DPA as I’d have gone over and looked at it. Only seen one at the airport myself.

As for the prop, that sucks, but maybe you could get a few door props made out of them and recoup some of the expense.


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