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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 22 May 2022, 17:11 
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What you are saying about the Piaggio resonates with my experience owning an Italian Agusta helicopter. It was extremely difficult, expensive and time consuming to get parts for it. It was also very difficult to find mechanics willing to work on it. I don't think I will own another Italian manufactured aircraft.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 22 May 2022, 21:10 
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Joined: 09/26/09
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I'm very sorry to hear about Matt's problems. It has to be so frustrating for him.

I do feel the need to defend the Piaggio - and hopefully not jinx myself. I'm finishing up 1 year of operation of over 200 hours. I had what I thought was great reliability in the MU-2. In year one the Piaggio is better. It has been 7 months away from the service center (IJSC) and I have only a handful of squawks - none of which are anything but a minor annoyance.

Parts & maintenance are not inexpensive. But - this is an aircraft more capable than most light jets - at a lower capital (well, at least it used to be) and operating costs.

I would not venture to own this machine without having a capable service group I trust - and we have that in Intercontinental Jet Service Corp. My plane sat for years (other than regular engine runs) but IJSC still vouched for it and it's lived up to expectations so far. I think they also understand my norms in maintaining equipment.

Now, don't get me wrong, if I lose a pitch trim actuator and can't find one somewhere...I'll be a hurting guy. But I'm not fearful.

Username Protected wrote:
After test flying her today, it was worth the expense! My conclusions after having on this thing eight months Is that is a very well-made machine that has incredible flight manners but it’s very expensive to maintain properly. Parts are fairly reasonably priced and available. However beyond a shadow of a doubt it’s worth every penny of the effort because it’s glorious to fly!


One conclusion that could be drawn here is there are different types of folks that own aircraft - and they might need to own different types of aircraft.

My take is Michael is most comfortable where he can manage/wrench every aspect of the aircraft - choosing to spend his time in search of value. Others, including myself, choose to invest our time in other pursuits and invest our dollars in those that can manage/wrench maintenance/repair aspects of aircraft.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 22 May 2022, 22:24 
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Joined: 09/26/09
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Company: ElitAire
Location: Columbus, OH - KCMH
Aircraft: Piaggio P180
And speaking of capability. My most challenging flight yet:

Went fishing with some guys in Cancun - Isla Mujeres. The flight there was a normal milk run from Columbus to Ft. Myers. After that fuel stop it was Key West and then airways that were roughly direct Cancun, paralleling Cuba for much of the way.

While there my overflight permit arrived, the winds were favorable and I was able to schedule CBP at my home drone even though they are advertised as closed.

Planned route was 1300nm. There was a front with strong storms scheduled to arrive at 5PM. Customs scheduled us at 415pm, so it was close - but looked pretty good. We were able to get off the ground in Cancun fairly quickly using little fuel. We filed at 370 but they held us at 350. That was good, because we were heavy and it was ISA +20. Performance was good and we pulled back on the speed a little in fears of arriving too early for CBP and to be more efficient.

After 90 minutes or so we requested 370. It was slow getting up there and only some lift from storms seemed to give us what we needed. Was able to continue pulling back to 170 KIAS as Anthony suggested. We got a bit of re-route upon entering FL (expected) Fuel & time were looking good.

Storms were building and I wanted to land with as much fuel as possible - so I asked for wrong way 380 but was denied. Didn't think I could get to 390. About this time we could see a storm line building ahead of the front in Columbus. We were watching that while navigating some around some summer FL buildups.

Once north of FL we were given 390 without asking and were able to get there. We were IMC and using XM & GWX to navigate storms. Once through GA we were focused on what was starting to look bad in Columbus. A diversion was becoming more likely and I was anxious about what we would do with CBP. I was able to use the SAT phone to call the Columbus duty officer to discuss what we would do with a potential diversion. He wasn't able to provide much help - he was used to airlines with dispatching crews.

We thought through our options and decided KPIT was best choice for weather/fuel/customs if Columbus didn't work. We started talking to Indy Center about Columbus and it became clear we'd have to divert.

We called the main CBP number we were given, explained that we'd be going too KPIT and asked for coordination. They connected us with PN sector who connected us with KPIT CBP. They were great, told us they could accommodate our arrival and how to find them on the field. We actually pulled up the a normal airline terminal gate. They were thorough and efficient. Ended up being 1500nm in just under 4.5 hours. We landed with legal but minimal fuel. In retrospect, we probably should have called the diversion earlier and went to Charlotte/Atlanta where we knew there would be Customs availability and less tight on fuel.

We had to fire up again to taxi to FBO. Atlantic there was very helpful, with crew car and crazy expensive fuel. There were at least 3 CMH bound diverted flights on the ground with us. We grabbed dinner very close by, came back and built a weather plan and took off, picked our way through a bunch of small storms and landed in Columbus.

The plane did great on this adventure. I'd really like to point out how helpful I found CBP was. 4 out of the 6 people we spoke with from up front scheduling to landing would be in the top 10% of "customer service" interactions I've had the last twelve months.



https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N2M ... /MMUN/KCMH
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N2M ... /KPIT/KCMH


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 08:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
After 90 minutes or so we requested 370. It was slow getting up there and only some lift from storms seemed to give us what we needed.

Nice report.

How slow is slow? 500fpm? 200fpm?

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 09:24 
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It took 6.5 minutes - and was aided by a few updrafts. Net was 300fpm. I'd say the plane was capable of 200fpm ..the rest was push from below.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 20:37 
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Awesome story Matt! We own these things bc of the adventure they provide and the memories they create.

Glad you all made it safely. What sat phone do you have? Is it the integrated garmin one?

Maybe I missed it, but how heavy were you on departure?

One thing I learned from another operator recently, when really high and climbing, use 800 on ITT. I was always staying at 780. The extra 20 degrees definitely helps. You may be doing it already though.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 21:26 
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Aircraft: Piaggio P180
Sat phone is the Garmin one...i forget model - GSR? I really don't know what I would have done without it on this flight. We were around 12,000 on departure. Initial cruise was +20ISA, decreased to +6 closer to destination.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 22:20 
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Username Protected wrote:
Sat phone is the Garmin one...i forget model - GSR? I really don't know what I would have done without it on this flight. We were around 12,000 on departure. Initial cruise was +20ISA, decreased to +6 closer to destination.


GSR56


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 23 May 2022, 23:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
It is, but its still not readily available. From what I'm told it's basically Piaggio specific since the hub is different right from left and there are not many (or any) other twin PT6A-66A planes.

Its just one example of many. In fact, we just sold our old (and damaged) windshield to someone else because there were not any available in the US. And a new one has a 9mon lead time from PPG. We were gonna hold onto it for a rainy day but supply is so tight for others. Windshields replacements aren't common but when you need one, you need one.


Matt- We sold SN 1098 to Dodson a couple of years ago. That airplane had both props and hubs go with it, as I recall. Have you checked with them to see if they still have a hub? Also, on the Rudder Trim Actuator....a II we sold a couple of months ago had a RTA that was due for overhaul. I was told that it has a 12mo. extension now from Piaggio due to lead time and availability. Not sure if that is helpful or not, but feel free to contact me anytime.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 24 May 2022, 00:34 
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I went back and double checked the spec on 1098. Unfortunately, the props were already gone before we listed it for the owners that acquired it post Avantair.. sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 31 May 2022, 13:20 
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Per prior posts - I updated FF this weekend and it appears per leg altitudes now available! Have yet to play with it and confirm that fuel flows in plan change with it.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 31 May 2022, 13:20 
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Per prior posts - I updated FF this weekend and it appears per leg altitudes now available! Have yet to play with it and confirm that fuel flows in plan change with it.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2022, 14:29 
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Company: Tack Mobile
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What would you guys tell a prospective Avanti owner concerned about parts availability, maintenance, and the stability of the company? This plane would be based in the chicagoland /MKE area. This is someone who is moving down from something larger and does not want to have to do any hands on maintenance or track down (or wait for) parts, or fly it across the country for inspections.

Lots of people apparently like to say "don't do it parts are hard to find" which to me sounds like a knee jerk reaction of someone trying to be helpful and saying something obvious.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2022, 18:44 
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Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
Username Protected wrote:
What would you guys tell a prospective Avanti owner concerned about parts availability, maintenance, and the stability of the company? This plane would be based in the chicagoland /MKE area. This is someone who is moving down from something larger and does not want to have to do any hands on maintenance or track down (or wait for) parts, or fly it across the country for inspections.

Lots of people apparently like to say "don't do it parts are hard to find" which to me sounds like a knee jerk reaction of someone trying to be helpful and saying something obvious.


John,

I'm not sure where the closest service center is to Chicago. Perhaps Anthony knows. But there are a number in the U.S. I'm familiar with Tulsa, Mathers on west coast and, of course, Intercontinental Jet in Tulsa.

I've owned my plane just under two years. In that time I've OH'd the landing gear and steering actuator, done some overhauls of other 12 parts, overhauled both props, brought up a fair amount of deferred maintenance discovered on the prebuy, done two A inspections (200 hours), had a couple of parts failures and am just finishing up a B inspection (600 hours). In all that there is a fair amount of either overhaul exchanging of parts.

I was able to buy a set of landing gear to OH and then exchange and sell mine so no downtime. Props took about 2 weeks. I had no downtime due to parts on the maintenance from prebuy or the first 200 hour A inspection. I have had to wait to get OH'd servos and have operated on a letter from Piaggio on those. When my pilot's side trim switch failed I had a yellow tagged part installed in 3 days. When I had a circuit board fail it took 3 days for a replacement.

During the most recent maintenance event (A&B) I've had to wait 3 weeks for Duncan to repair a compressor part, I had to replace the fire loop on one engine as my detection piece of that went out and it took about 5 days to ship in (but I had 3 choices - new and yellow tagged with differing warranties) and on that inspection we discovered someone had puttied the emergency exit closed and it took about 10 days to get a new part from Italy.

I've not been AOG, other than this major inspection taking a week longer than scheduled, in that period.

I'd say my parts availability experience, so far, knock on wood, has been on par with my experience with TBM. As has location convenience of maintenance facilities.

Piaggio is in bankruptcy, has been for a long time and is likely to remain there for awhile. I don't think it's permanent as the Italian government needs them to stay alive. But, it's a risk. The risk of maintenance seems to be mitigated by a strong maintenance community, a lot of used parts from scrapped airplanes and some new parts from Piaggio - though I think it may have deteriorated somewhat in the last few months. Offsetting the risk is the capex and opex of the airplane compared to anything remotely close to it in terms of capability.

It's not for everyone but I think you see here, for the most part, owner/operators who really like the plane. I'm sure overhaul dispatch reliability would be better in a CJ3 but that's what it would take to beat the P180 all in - assuming you don't mind a tiny tube (I don't - I don't sit in the back).

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 Post subject: Avant 1 and Garmin
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2022, 13:03 
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Good morning all. We just acquired SN 1088, which had the twin GTN750 upgrade a few years back, but not the G600. We noticed the autopilot doesn’t do a very good job on NAV mode tracking a GPS based flight plan…correction for wind is quite poor.

First question…has anyone else experienced this in their GTN upgraded Avanti?

Second question, for those who also did the G600Txi, have you seen an improvement with the Autopilot tracking?

Third, has anyone heard any updates from Garmin about better integration with the Collins autopilot to make the integration better or the option to replace the autopilot with a Garmin digital AP since the Avanti is very similar engine and avionics wise to certain older KingAirs which have an STC for the Garmin G1000 upgrade.

Lastly, if you answered yes to the first question, were you able to improve the performance by adjusting the gain on the system so that the autopilot is more responsive to the output?

Thanks!


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