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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2021, 18:19 
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Joined: 12/30/15
Posts: 1697
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Location: Charlotte
Aircraft: Avanti-Citabria
Picked up me bird from SAI in Greenville, SC this am.
Finally in tip top shape thanks to Dave Duncan who is new to SAI and has a couple decades I think of Avanti experience including 15 years with Avanti America.

Yaw Damper fixed and covered under the CASP insurance with Proline. It went out on return trip from Flight Safety back in February. I missed it a bit in turbulence up at altitude but Avanti rides so good anyway I do not expect much difference.

Overhauled trim motor....ouch.
I missed on my practically non existent pre-buy.
Trims just in slow phase with high speed motor inop. I noticed early on and thought I don't really like that it trims so slow but love airplane anyway. I learned mine was inop during Flight Safety school. High speed trim motor is only really needed when slow speed. I purchased plane mid December at a really good price from a non profit that wanted it off the books. I knew the risk and consider this a relatively small ouch overall.

Fuel flow indicator on right side is now correct.

New lower door cable put on correctly with correct swaging device and at perfect height.

New leading edge gel coat on front wings and horizontal stabilizer.

On way back I could not just fly 80 miles to Charlotte so I went to the coast near Wilmington,NC. and landed at Columbus county.

About half way there Atlanta called my traffic. 10 o' clock 1,000 feet above, flight of 3 F-16's

F-16 pilot: Atlanta...traffic in sight...turning left 10 degrees...I need a closer look at this
cool Avanti


OK, :liar: , OK

I did get eyeballs on all three F-16's which was kool
I would have said that IFIN I were the F-16 pilots

On way back time for multiple steep turns and a stall.
I needed the practice on steep turns. Going 210 indicated at 14,500 she will lose/gain 50-100' a wee bit faster than me Citabria.

As to stalls I do not really like stall horn and light blaring on every landing....it goes off a hair too soon/fast.
14,500 and slow flight with gear and full flaps let see when she really stalls.

108-109 I get the horn/light.....it's loud

98 knots I got the tiniest buffet....good to confirm for me.

From Dave:
Run/exercise your trim motor from stop to stop every time you fly it.

Feather engines for 20-30 seconds before shutdown to keep oil from coking up auto feather bypass switch/thingamagiggy so your auto feather test works properly.

Oh,
When I landed back home TWO lineman were each filling wing of a new Cessna M2 jet.
I couldn't help meself and said:
Why don't you use the single point pressure refueling? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2021, 20:57 
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Joined: 09/26/09
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Company: ElitAire
Location: Columbus, OH - KCMH
Aircraft: Piaggio P180
Nice post Brad. I also get the stall horn on landing. Not always, but reasonably often. Thought it was poor piloting by yours truly...maybe not. Anthony & Tony - how about you? I still think I'm chewing up a bunch of runway on landing. Anyone care to share detailed techniques (speeds/power lever/condition lever) from approach through turn-off? I believe I have room for improvement.

Good tips on trim & feather. Anyone else have birds that creep forward doing ovsp gov & autofeather checks? Happens to me sometimes - but not often. Seems strange.

Speaking of Atlanta...flew from Columbus to Sarasota Saturday. Here's a bit of a long but I think unique story...

Second Atlanta center controller pipes up...conversation goes something like this...

"N130EM?" (Controller). "N130EM here" (Me)
"How are you doing?" "I'm doing great, how about you?"
"I'm good - how are things going up there". "Smooth & clear..."
"Well, Columbus Tower called about you" (Uh oh...I don't remember anything eventful)
"Seems they had a report about some strange sounds from your engines at takeoff" "Huh, well everything looks good up here now" (Pull headset off and listen) "And everyhign sounds OK now"
"So everything is OK?" "Yep, all good so far"

I ponder for a minute and ask Atlanta for a number to call Columbus Tower once on ground. I do call the Columbus FBO line crew using the Garmin GSR "Hear me take off?" "Yep" "Hear anything unusual?" "Well, wasn't really paying attention, but no, nothing that we can remember -why?"

Two sectors later "N130EM - everything OK up there" "Sure"
"We heard about the reports of your engine issues and just wanted to check in on you". Well, aw shucks, this is great service and caring..

Call the landing FBO, explain report, and ask if they can have experienced line personnel present on shutdown just to listen for anything out of the ordinary. "Sure". Just before shutdown do a mild run-up on each engine separately. Ask line crew if they heard anything funny - just got blank looks - OK, that message didn't get forwarded.

Call Columbus tower, Turns out they got a call from airport neighbor about 15 minutes after I left, reports of a business jet (grin). taking off that just didn't sound right - funny engine noises. They went back through the tapes and thought I was the only aircraft that matched time/location. I said "well, this plane has a rep with a funny sound - maybe like a chainsaw". Tower "come to think of it, that's exactly how he described it..." It's been a few years, but at Christmas time have taken boxes of cookies to tower/approach controllers and toured facility. Will have to do that again this year, and play them some YouTube videos of Avanti depatures so they know what "strange" sounds like..


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2021, 21:24 
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Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
Username Protected wrote:
Nice post Brad. I also get the stall horn on landing. Not always, but reasonably often. Thought it was poor piloting by yours truly...maybe not. Anthony & Tony - how about you? I still think I'm chewing up a bunch of runway on landing. Anyone care to share detailed techniques (speeds/power lever/condition lever) from approach through turn-off? I believe I have room for improvement.



So, if you're not getting the stall warning on touchdown are you going too fast? I thought you wanted it to squawk just at touchdown.

My training is slow to vref short final and hold speed to the numbers, often a touch of throttle at round out, fly down to touch down, often stall horn at touchdown, props into beta, condition levers to ground idle, under 60 beta off and take off steering on, slowing to taxi speed and steering to taxi and off the runway. Minimal brake use.

You can come barreling into the inner marker at 180, drop gear and then flaps mid and land very easily when they ask you to keep your speed up. In that case I'd carry a little more speed to the ground and let it bleed off if you have the runway.

Contaminated runways, wet, short, etc. I have no experience yet.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2021, 23:04 
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Joined: 03/03/11
Posts: 1845
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Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
Carbon brakes don’t work well when cold, hence the creep forward during feather and overspeed checks. Cold rainy days it can be quite annoying.

I taxi around with one prop in feather. Makes using brakes unnecessary. Even with both in beta it can get a head of steam on downhill runways with tailwinds while taxiing.

Stall horn goes off if I am doing everything right! It seems sensitive in ground effect.

My shortest landing rolls involve holding the nose off for as long as possible. If you are in reverse this can be a long time. Makes it so when nose touches you are almost at steering speed. Another Piaggio pilot showed me the trick. I like it a lot and you can really feel the airframe drag brake effect.

There is no short landing roll though if you don’t want to touch the brakes. That said, they are pretty impressive if you stand on them.

I flew 35 hours in the last month. I continue to be impressed by how capable of a plane it is.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2021, 11:29 
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Joined: 12/30/15
Posts: 1697
Post Likes: +1712
Location: Charlotte
Aircraft: Avanti-Citabria
I need to qualify/unqualify myself before possibly throwing out opinions as if I were some test pilot with vast experience.

2500 total hours
500 hours multi

400 of those in an Avanti trainer-Aerostar 700

I am now just past 100 in Avanti. My first turbine.
MUCH more to learn.

On my flight Monday I left out weight and CG
I was around 10,400 and CG near aft limit (just me flying)
I was not about to get deep into stall.
Slight buffet at 98 knots. I expected a few knots lower.

As far as my opinion the stall horn goes off a bit too soon I have reconsidered and also remembered my first day of training. I consider Avanti to be very docile in the stall thereby giving a newbie such as I a greater margin of safety against getting too slow.
I got the stall horn on base leg my first day of training. Just the horn, no buffet. I immediately lowered the nose, add a bit of power and mentally chided myself. So much for showing I would be a competent jet pilot...argh.

Approach speed listed as 117 -125 depending on weight.
At light weight and coming over fence at 117 I float a bit more than I would expect.
5,000 foot and longer runways...so what

While definitely not a short field airplane I desire the most utility I can achieve out of this wonderful bird. For me with little or no wind gust and no trees to clear I am comfortable coming over the fence a bit below 117. I landed in Dallas on Runway 17 RBD (3800 feet) and did a U turn about 3200 feet. I do not remember the headwind component but remember it was OVER 10 knots or I would have landed runway 13. I hope to get competent landing this plane on 3500ish feet in time...under the correct conditions...with a go around mentally VERY prepared for. My plan does not include heavy braking.

I have not been pulling condition levers to ground idle until about to exit runway. No one at Flight Safety told me any different. Will pull to GI just after BETA on next landing.

This airplane does not have anti skid and excessive heavy braking HAS resulted in blown tires and runway excursions....the latest one just a month ago. Along with the blown tire you will likely grind off the bottom half of the wheel and brake and be facing 100k repair if you do not exit the runway and cause further damage. The previous owner bald spotted a tire from heavy braking on my plane on returning to his home field from flying me the first time. I was impressed that he left bald spot tire by his office to show me when I came to inspect airplane the second time.

As for holding nose off I will have to try that....carefully with a light load.
I was told to make sure and hold nose down hard before going into reverse with a load of passengers (aft CG) or you risk a tail strike.

Enough blabbering
Headed to fly Citabria that just got out of an exspensive annual.
Overhauled mags and annual totaled just under 2 AMU

How is that for a balanced fleet :cheers:

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2021, 13:14 
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Joined: 11/30/12
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Location: Santa Fe, NM (KSAF)
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I got the stall horn on base leg my first day of training. Just the horn, no buffet. I immediately lowered the nose, add a bit of power and mentally chided myself. So much for showing I would be a competent jet pilot...argh.

Sounds like a competent pilot's reaction to a slight misjudgment in a new plane. Perfect? No, but you'll get there.

Don't beat yourself up too much.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2021, 13:17 
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Joined: 12/17/13
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Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Have you guys seen that German P180 short field landing and takeoff? It's actually pretty impressive how short he can get one into with the right technique. Is the AOA useful as a guide - can you fly that separately or is it baked into the Proline stuff like on airlines?

BTW, what I loved about the Aerostar was the ample buffet-warning you got when it was about to stall. It could not be missed and therefore was a great safety feature (it was even certified without stall warner). Sounds like the P180 is similar in that regard.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2021, 14:06 
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The PL21 "blend and cook" the Angle of Attack (AoA) into PFD Impending Stall Strip (ISS) and Low Speed Cue (LSC) indications that are a function of the actual IAS and AoA.

Sadly, the old Avanti EFIS-85 gave a more direct representation of AoA with a Fast/Slow (F/S) indicator that was more directly proportional to the measured AoA.

I'm not aware of any integration of AoA indication on Garmin displays.

The Stall Waring computer is the same for both A/C: it directly drives the warning lamps and the Aural Tone Generator according to predetermined lift curves, and provides the avionic system with a measurement of the (Normalized) Angle of Attack.

The P.180 Forward Wing is designed to always stall before the Main Wing, resulting in an "automatic" pitch-down and "protection". Just in case...


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2021, 14:16 
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Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
In training I did some aggressive stalls. You can hold the stick back and the nose breaks, falls, regains AoA, flies again, goes up, breaks, falls, regains AoA. It just keeps smoothly repeating.

You get a pretty strong rumble from the FWd wing before it breaks. Sounds like a truck on a washboard road. It’s such a quiet plane you can really hear the airflow changes.

I find floating more of a function of trying to flare vs speed. Attempt to really round out and you float a loooong way.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2021, 18:33 
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Joined: 12/17/13
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In training I did some aggressive stalls. You can hold the stick back and the nose breaks, falls, regains AoA, flies again, goes up, breaks, falls, regains AoA. It just keeps smoothly repeating.

You get a pretty strong rumble from the FWd wing before it breaks. Sounds like a truck on a washboard road. It’s such a quiet plane you can really hear the airflow changes.

I find floating more of a function of trying to flare vs speed. Attempt to really round out and you float a loooong way.


So, just to recap: best technique for a short landing is to flare more aggressively, and as soon as the mains touch, apply Beta and then try to keep the nose up as long as possible?

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2021, 08:45 
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Not flare aggressively. If u so that, you float. Cross numbers, pull power, hold atttiude, wheels hit, full reverse, hold nose off.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2021, 12:10 
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Thanks.

What would happen if you did a C152-type landing, i.e. come in, pull high nose and aim to set wheels down almost in stall? Would that be possible?

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2021, 12:31 
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Aircraft: Avanti-Citabria
I have had similar thoughts Adam.
Flat approach, drag it in with power. wheels on right at stall.

Did this in Citabria yesterday...except I dumped flaps right after three point.
Might have been my shortest roll out yet!

HOWEVER. Avanti is NOT a light taildragger. Wheels on at 41 mph in me Citabria is much different than wheels on at 102 knots in Avanti.
Woohoo!, look at my bad self....until I break something or hurt someone.

This supposed short field chest thumping landing I desire to accomplish would by NO means fit into SOP for a 135 charter operation.

My desire to gently explore the safer edge of envelope must be balanced with a larger dose of caution in Avanti.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 13 Aug 2021, 09:31 
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Co-pilot in training.

4 hour flight yesterday. High temps, no help from the wind and storms galore.

Left Denver fairly heavy at 30 degree C. I have noticed on the hot high and heavy departures you rotate, pull gear and flaps and the plane settles a little before accelerating out and climbing.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 13 Aug 2021, 13:35 
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Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Since it came up in the MU-2 For Sale thread, I thought I'd find the two films of a Avanti II doing some pretty impressive STOL duty:

;)

[youtube]http://youtu.be/gW7HfEf_H4E[/youtube]

[youtube]http://youtu.be/bSJQB-wHm6k[/youtube]

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