Tony’s plane getting inspected. One of the nicest paint jobs I have ever seen on a plane. Looks brand new!

Other pic is rolling along above the smoke layer today. Had to get to fl350 to fully top it.

600lbs/hr, fl350, 370kts, ISA +14.

Tony, that airplane is gonna look sweet. Anthony, that smoke was crazy. We were able to top it at 30k yesterday on our way to tRide.

I barely topped it today at 270 coming back east from Dallas.

I never opened this thread up until 3:30 this morning and have read every comment. Never would have remotely considered a Piaggio, not even an afterthought, but you guys got me thinking. Great planes I absolutely had no idea.

How are the parts availability? I am spoiled with our Citations as we have every single part the next day from multiple sources. Props anything special there? My biggest hesitation would be an issue where we are AOG for an extended period of time due to some part and of course a company on shaky ground.

And of course we just bought a C560 yesterday.

Thanks
Gary

Parts are good overall but there a handful of gotchas. I have spoken with many many operators. The horror stories are few and far between.

My read is citations have more parts in the wild but the piaggio break a little less frequently so it’s a wash.

Props are standard fare.

Lead mechanic at ICJC claims Piaggio is more reliable than MU2.

I still believe it’s the most undermarketed plane in aviation.

My take on parts at this point is that it isn't optimal but also not too bad. The plane I'm purchasing is have pre purchase squawks and an avionics upgrade done. In that process we had one significant, and expensive part needed and not available for several months from Piaggio. However, we found a number of used serviceable parts at much lower cost and readily available. I had to make a couple calls to make that happen.

We are waiting on a few parts to finish the squawks but they are/were all anticipated to arrive in a 2 week period.

A Collins PL21 upgrade part hasn't been available and will likely push off the upgrade because of that. That's a Collins issue as its not an airframe specific part.

It seems that most commonly used parts are readily available but some looking may be required. In discussing the overall issue with ICJS the point was made that the rotable stock of overhaul parts in the fleet is much newer and that's an advantage compared to a lot of planes that have been flying for the last couple of decades.

Fingers crossed!

If I can find parts to my old 680V from 1967, with less than probably 10 flying, it can't be that bad for a model with 200 flying.

Is the Evo production line moving? What's the current state of Piaggio and manufacturing new airplanes? I really hope they're moving and making airplanes. I love these guys!

As a followup.. have any of you guys done the landing gear upgrade to the Evo system? I don't know what it all means but I recall it gets you into a better maintenance regime & schedule.

I may give a first-hand summary of the company situation.

Nothing "secret" here, but I'm sure it could be difficult for all of you in the US to have a full picture of the situation.

The production line is up and running at low rate, although with not many new orders.

Lines building parts for third-parties (e.g. Dassault, Alenia, P&WC, Rolls Royce) never stopped.

A lot of engineers have left the company in the last three years and most of the blue collars have been put in "layoff" and called back only when needed.

Covid issues have further reduced the manpower presence in the plants.

The company is under a "Chapter 11" management, seeking for buyers. The short list has been reduced to 9 bidders, some of them only interested in some of the business units (Aircraft Design ad Production, Aircraft Support, Engines Production and Support), other interested in the whole company. The selection process, if anyone interested will place a binding offer, is foreseen to be completed within the end of the year. A bidder for the whole lot will be preferred.

The local Labor Unions strongly support the Leonardo Group (which is a state-owned group, including the former Agusta, Aermacchi and Alenia airframers), further supported by the government "Golden Power". This will guarantee the occupational level, but some critics says that within Leonardo, Piaggio may die for consumption, since it's products are out of their aviation core business (Helicopters and Military Aircraft).

No issues foreseen about maintaining the existing fleet: many service centers can support the A/C and already develops lots of STC's.

The company has debts for some hundreds of million Euros, and claims to have already signed contracts (most of them with the Italian Air Force) for a total of some 800 Millions Euros.

It is a news of the last days that a contract for a new Evo has been signed with an US operator:

http://www.piaggioaerospace.it/en/media/archivio/news/2020-09-10-piaggio-aerospace-from-the-united-states-a-new-order-for-one-avanti-evo

This is the first private order after a while...Hope it's not a "white fly" as we say here in Italy...

In the last couple of years the company has been engaged in some maintenance and MLU activities for the Italian Air Force fleet of some 20 P.180's (and few more P.166, too).

The Italian ENAV Flight Inspection services are run by a fleet of four Avanti II and a full maintenance and support contract has been renewed last year.

Hope this helps.

Daniele

Thank you Daniele for your comprehensive report. I used to be based at KCMA where there was a charter unit using the plane (long but not so good story). So I got to talk to a lot of pilots at the cafe and even read some of the flight test reports, etc. A great plane but its low level noise signature is a bit unnerving.

Am thinking of purchasing a SETP but that’s about my limit... But who knows about the future?

Good luck,

Tom
46U

Tyler,

My understanding is that when the new gear came out the overhaul shops dropped their pricing (a good thing!) so most are just overhauling. The "typical" quoted cost is $250k but one shop with good reviews is as low as $165k on a 8 week turn and $184k on 6. AVRO who apparently is the gold standard is at the higher price. Then it can go up based on excess part wear, etc. The Managhi gear is about $450k. The advantage of that is the OH cycle is 15 years not 12 and cost is $85kish. I have to do mine next year and will OH.

Tony, I'm thrilled for you as the Avanti definitely checks off most of the boxes for you. The efficiency and range are astounding and it really does deliver jet speeds at tprop economics. It's one of my all-time favorite birds, although I'm quite biased. Both of my AAE professors at Ohio State had a great deal of involvement with the design, especially the laminar wing and props. Piaggio partnered with OSU on its development and completed extensive testing at the 8' OSU wind tunnels back in the day.

I've always had the impression that the mx and parts were a nightmare on the Avanti but can't say I've ever looked that closely. From what I'm reading here it may not be as bad as I thought. It just doesn't make much sense why it was such a collosal market failure given it's performance and efficiency.

I know you had much concern about the support and long term viability of Eclipse and those factors weighed heavily in your decision to write the Eclipse off your list of potentials when you were bought the TBM. So, I'm surprised with many of those same factors involved in the Avanti that you choose it instead of something else produced in greater numbers with solid corporate stability backing it up. Why are those not greater factors for you in this decision?

Also, since I know you've run the numbers against countless other choices, where do you put the all-in costs to own and operate the Avanti? What bird closely matches it's all-in costs and what's slightly above and below it?

On the landing gear OH vs. new gear, I can’t imagine why a Part 91 operator would do anything other than inspect and repair the gear as necessary (OH would be required for 135 ops as I understand it). However, deciding not to OH the gear will reduce the resale value by an amount roughly equivalent to the OH cost, other things being equal, so that’s a factor to consider. We have a Piaggio shop at my home field (SimsAir) so I see them from time to time and really like them.

Tony, what Collins part is getting in the way of the avionics upgrade? I would have thought that PL21 parts would be easily available from Collins ... that surprises me a bit. Doesn’t look like the synthetic vision upgrade is currently available for the Avanti II (like it is for the Premier 1/1A, if you watch Greg Mink’s videos). That would be a nice add - I have seen a few with Avidyne 545s in the panel to get some version of synthetic vision, I presume.

Cheers

Don,

I actually looked very hard at Eclipse again this time. Prices for practically new airplanes are incredibly cheap and the parts and maintenance ecosystem seem pretty well worked out. In thinking of buying an Eclipse the deciding factor would just be to fly a jet as range, speed and ultimately trip times didn't improve.

As I looked at a change I primarily wanted better range, better speed, a really potty (big damned deal that). I looked at Commanders again. No speed advantage. I looked at the usual light jet suspects. No range advantage and thus no trip time gains for a lot more cost. I looked, briefly, at KA's. No speed, range, cost advantage.

As I considered the Avanti I did what Anthony, Mark pioneered by Adam did. I set the rumors, innuendo, OWT's, etc. and asked people who fly and maintain them had to say. I'll say I think Piaggio has had an undeserved bad rap on maintenance costs. We'll see. You pays your money an you takes your chances. I'm paying mine.

Speaking of which that is one of Piaggio's HUGE advantages. Capex and market depreciation are the two ownership cost drivers if you do an honest accounting. When you start with a low capex relative to other choices you start with a big cost advantage. When the capex is low enough it also impacts the absolute dollars of depreciation even if you hold per centage constant. I'm buying a plane with less than 1,000 hours on it, single owner, well maintained (for the most part), for a price I think you might find hard to believe. And it's certainly not the only deal out there. Yes, when it's time to sell I expect it will move slower than my last couple of planes. But priced correctly (go see the S model Bonanza threads I'm not worried about it. Plus I've got Neal! ).

Joel,

As you point out you pay now or later.

They don't have the DBU 5000 apparently.

I looked at, and made an offer on, a II with the Avidyne installed. It works after a fashion as a guidance device and makes LPV legal. I've heard opinions on both sides of it. The cost to install is greater than the LPV upgrade given the ADSB work the PO had already done so for both those reasons I decided to stay 100% Collins.