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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2021, 09:12 
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Joined: 10/18/11
Posts: 1026
Post Likes: +584
Aircraft: Seabee Aerostar 700
great advice. only a few failures do you need to take care of right now


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2021, 15:11 
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Joined: 04/22/10
Posts: 1177
Post Likes: +1981
Location: Port Vila and sometimes Brisbane
Aircraft: A36 Bonanza
Username Protected wrote:
Dangnabit,

I said it wrong,

“Slow is smooth....smooth is fast”

Not so good with words but will try and elaborate.

In piston twin we have to react kinda fast on the fear of (thankfully incredibly rare) engine failure on take off.
For these last 3 years in Aerostar I have tried to drill Doug R’s mantra in me small brain:

Mixture, Prop, throttle full forward..etc...etc.

I had the gift of being in the sim with a truly dedicated pro.
What I noticed with amazement is how he was SLOW to react on almost every emergency item other than engine failure on rotation or catastrophic depressurization.


“Hmm, we have a red light, wonder what happened.
Let’s grab the book...

Oh, flight attendant would you get me a coffee please...one cream, no sugar.

Now,
We have a:

Bleed air issue
Engine failure
Pressure issue
Fuel pressure issue”. ..and so on

Other than engine failure on rotation or cat depress. NOTHING needs to be done fast.

Engine failure at altitude we slowly went from 225 indicated to 180 indicated
touch NOTHING!!!

Grab the book, do the steps, have a sip of coffee.
Divert to nearest suitable airport if needed.

It was eye opening...and we laughed at my silly self.

First door seal light I got I quickly looked at pressure gauge and quickly determined wrongly that cabin pressure was at 25,000.

Silly boy, that was the small needle pointing to cabin diff still at 9.0

So I quickly put on mask and quickly started emergency decent down.

Just one door seal point, no big deal.
What’s the book say....in an abundance of caution calmly descend down to FL300 or lower
Just in case a pressure issue develops.

Did you notice the number of quicklies?...is that a word?

Did I mention we laughed at my silly self

Slow is smooth...smooth is fast


Brad when I was a young FO at my first airline (after best part of 9000hrs GA ME hours - you can imagine the muscle memory I had developed when it came to engine failures) the Fleet Captain gave me a simulated EFATO #4 engine in the mighty DHC7.

I faithfully flew the plane and launched into the newly memorised DHC7 engine failure procedure calling for him to do this and that...at the rate of about 1 thing/second - just like in every aircraft I'd flown before. :shrug:

He sat slumped in his seat looking at me with a bemused smile...as I lost momentum due to his inactivity :whiteflag:

"Chuck - sit back, relax, enjoy your emergency. I'm old - I cant move that fast"

Its a line I've used many a time with my own trainees. :thumbup:

_________________
Chuck Perry
A36 VH-EZU
B737-800NG
Redcliffe
QLd, Australia


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 27 Feb 2021, 20:10 
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Joined: 12/30/15
Posts: 1697
Post Likes: +1712
Location: Charlotte
Aircraft: Avanti-Citabria
Prist....got it

Jet fuel prices...still much to learn.
Rule numero uno- I have CAA card
Many places do not take it

Also I know a little about negotiating. PBI wanted $4.50 plus $150 per night.
PBI-Atlantic matched FXE price of $3.10ish price plus I got overnight down to $50 per night.
Landed PBI vs driving an hour up from FXE

Teluride price of $6.89...Penman??
Moab Utah (CNY) price of $5.97...ouch...going there in a few weeks

Yeah, I can pay it, but what phun is that

Just applied for AV fuel card

Cough up sum details guys :popcorn:

_________________
I wanna go phastR.....and slowR


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 27 Feb 2021, 22:03 
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8415
Post Likes: +8303
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
Figure out if CAA is good where you go or not. It doesn't work for me - at least until Covid goes away.

I have the usual fuel cards and my assistant makes a bunch of calls. When you tell one FBO what the other is offering they will often, but not always, match. Unfortunately for me my destination airport is city owned with crazy prices and no discounts. At least the ramp fee isn't terrible at $30/night.

When you think you have it all negotiated ask "are there any other fees we haven't discussed". I got temporarily hung at KSNS with about $800 on something she didn't ask about. Luckily got it waived finally.

_________________
Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
Never enough!


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 27 Feb 2021, 22:26 
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Joined: 01/21/14
Posts: 5098
Post Likes: +3639
Company: FAA Flight Check
Location: Oklahoma City, OK (KOKC)
Aircraft: King Air 300F/C90GTx
Heard a Piaggio going into Searcy, AR (KSRC) on Thursday.
Any of our BT'ers???


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 27 Feb 2021, 22:56 
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Joined: 10/31/10
Posts: 682
Post Likes: +367
Location: Novato, CA (DVO)
Aircraft: 1980 Bonanza A36TN
The Everest card has been the second best to CAA for me. Sign up for jetfuelX. You load your cards into it and it tells you the various prices at each airport. Also integrates with ForeFlight so prices are always handy and up to date.

_________________
Fritz


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Feb 2021, 03:58 
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Joined: 04/24/18
Posts: 727
Post Likes: +340
Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
Username Protected wrote:
Prist....got it

Jet fuel prices...still much to learn.
Rule numero uno- I have CAA card
Many places do not take it

Also I know a little about negotiating. PBI wanted $4.50 plus $150 per night.
PBI-Atlantic matched FXE price of $3.10ish price plus I got overnight down to $50 per night.
Landed PBI vs driving an hour up from FXE

Teluride price of $6.89...Penman??
Moab Utah (CNY) price of $5.97...ouch...going there in a few weeks

Yeah, I can pay it, but what phun is that

Just applied for AV fuel card

Cough up sum details guys :popcorn:


CAA, Worldfuel, Shell, Avfuel and Everest. All loaded into JetfuelX of course.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Feb 2021, 07:47 
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Joined: 08/24/13
Posts: 8407
Post Likes: +3662
Company: Aviation Tools / CCX
Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
Username Protected wrote:

CAA, Worldfuel, Shell, Avfuel and Everest. All loaded into JetfuelX of course.


I use CAA whenever I can and the savings can be significant. Do any of the others you listed have similar savings? I have Worldfuel but savings have been a lot less than CAA (although still worth having).


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Feb 2021, 10:31 
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Joined: 04/24/18
Posts: 727
Post Likes: +340
Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
Username Protected wrote:

CAA, Worldfuel, Shell, Avfuel and Everest. All loaded into JetfuelX of course.


I use CAA whenever I can and the savings can be significant. Do any of the others you listed have similar savings? I have Worldfuel but savings have been a lot less than CAA (although still worth having).


Fields that have a CAA fbo are great. For those that don't, the others are good back up and don't cost anything.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Feb 2021, 17:31 
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8415
Post Likes: +8303
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
Miscellaneous ruminating:

My milk run is 1213 NM plus or minus a wee bit of routing changes from KPWA to KWVI. Over the last 4 trips I'm averaging about 7:50 round trip. That's 310 knots over the ground on average including climb, descent, vectoring and approach. Given the 80-100 knot headwinds and 40-80 tail winds I seem to get that's pretty good IMO.

I've not made it nonstop going west yet. I have always made it nonstop going east.

I've flown cruised from FL320 to FL410 and the plane seems happiest at FL35-36 all things considered.

With a full load of fuel and 50 lbs in the luggage compartment I need a 50lb sack of shot under the copilots seat to be in the envelope at takeoff. 200lbs in the back requires 100 in the front. I just put 50lbs under each seat and that seems to eliminate just about any loading issues.

Some fuel trucks seem to have an issue getting 2800 lbs on board with pressure fueling but waiting a few minutes when their pump shuts off and then trying again gets anywhere from 35 to 150 more pounds on board and the fuel totalizer will say 2820 to 2830 lbs. I know Mark likes to climb on top of the plane and gravity fuel but I think pressure, single point refueling is such a cool feature and easy that this is what works for me.

So far, line service fails to close the door for the fuel tank interconnect switch 80% of the time.

I have learned to not use my brakes on my Waco except for holding for runup and turning off the taxiway. Taking that same process in the Piaggio is easy and hopefully drives the brake overhaul away! I had a steering failure turning onto a taxi way the other day and that's exiting. It's good to have brakes!

CarbonX is the best thing I've found for cleaning the props. Even after nearly 20 hours between cleaning it's not too bad. And the bonus is that almost nothing else except the spinners gets dirty. The wing's leading edge is too thin to kill bugs, except on accident.

The hardest thing about flying the plane is getting in the seat. Once there it's comfortable for 2 hours. But with Oregon Aero I'm good indefinitely. The most comfortable part of the plane for the pilot is the relief tube in the potty - and the best reason to bring another pilot along on a long cross country.

The cabinetry was designed for pilots: the drawer with the AFM is an easy reach, and so is the snack drawer.

ATC likes to treat you like a turbo prop while you're running over the little jets...

_________________
Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
Never enough!


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 28 Feb 2021, 17:38 
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Joined: 09/02/09
Posts: 8415
Post Likes: +8303
Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
This is pretty typical fuel burn and speed (though it was a few knots slower when heavier). Here at FL350.

It's so unremarkable I'm not sure why I took the picture.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
Never enough!


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2021, 15:48 
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Joined: 11/25/20
Posts: 30
Post Likes: +15
Username Protected wrote:
Miscellaneous ruminating:

My milk run is 1213 NM plus or minus a wee bit of routing changes from KPWA to KWVI. Over the last 4 trips I'm averaging about 7:50 round trip. That's 310 knots over the ground on average including climb, descent, vectoring and approach. Given the 80-100 knot headwinds and 40-80 tail winds I seem to get that's pretty good IMO.

I've not made it nonstop going west yet. I have always made it nonstop going east.

I've flown cruised from FL320 to FL410 and the plane seems happiest at FL35-36 all things considered.

With a full load of fuel and 50 lbs in the luggage compartment I need a 50lb sack of shot under the copilots seat to be in the envelope at takeoff. 200lbs in the back requires 100 in the front. I just put 50lbs under each seat and that seems to eliminate just about any loading issues.

Some fuel trucks seem to have an issue getting 2800 lbs on board with pressure fueling but waiting a few minutes when their pump shuts off and then trying again gets anywhere from 35 to 150 more pounds on board and the fuel totalizer will say 2820 to 2830 lbs. I know Mark likes to climb on top of the plane and gravity fuel but I think pressure, single point refueling is such a cool feature and easy that this is what works for me.

So far, line service fails to close the door for the fuel tank interconnect switch 80% of the time.

I have learned to not use my brakes on my Waco except for holding for runup and turning off the taxiway. Taking that same process in the Piaggio is easy and hopefully drives the brake overhaul away! I had a steering failure turning onto a taxi way the other day and that's exiting. It's good to have brakes!

CarbonX is the best thing I've found for cleaning the props. Even after nearly 20 hours between cleaning it's not too bad. And the bonus is that almost nothing else except the spinners gets dirty. The wing's leading edge is too thin to kill bugs, except on accident.

The hardest thing about flying the plane is getting in the seat. Once there it's comfortable for 2 hours. But with Oregon Aero I'm good indefinitely. The most comfortable part of the plane for the pilot is the relief tube in the potty - and the best reason to bring another pilot along on a long cross country.

The cabinetry was designed for pilots: the drawer with the AFM is an easy reach, and so is the snack drawer.

ATC likes to treat you like a turbo prop while you're running over the little jets...



Tony- Thanks for posting this. Over the years when selling these to people, the one thing that I don't have a lot of data on is what the numbers look like when actually flying them. Generally, I'd suggest that a prospect contact one of our previous customers to get it straight from the source. I don't like pretending I know how to fly one, when obviously, the only thing I am qualified to do is probably work the coffee pot in the back. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2021, 20:03 
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Joined: 04/20/15
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Location: KFAT
Username Protected wrote:
This is pretty typical fuel burn and speed (though it was a few knots slower when heavier). Here at FL350.

It's so unremarkable I'm not sure why I took the picture.


Tony, it's not unremarkable to me! I love seeing these numbers

Question for you (and all the P180 drivers here): do you usually follow torque tables for setting power or a rule-of-thumb ITT limit?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2021, 21:37 
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Joined: 03/03/11
Posts: 1845
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Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
I run 2000lbs torque till I hit 780 temps and leave it there the rest of the flight.

Usually hit 780 between fl270 and fl290 depending on temps.

Both 2000 and 780 are a little below limits (2232 and 820).

It’s a pretty easy engine to run. I really never look at charts unless I am confirming how much faster than book I am going :-)


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2021, 21:45 
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Joined: 03/03/11
Posts: 1845
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Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
Tony - this is a tough winter for winds. I bet you will start making the westbound soon. 40-50kt gradient on the nose and you should make it. 100kt kills the range especially if it’s ifr on the other end.

How does the round trip compare to the TBM? Is your wife enjoying the bigger cabin?


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