27 Apr 2024, 11:06 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Mar 2024, 16:58 |
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Joined: 02/28/18 Posts: 39 Post Likes: +10
Aircraft: NA
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Username Protected wrote: Does anyone have a ForeFlight profile I could borrow? 4 hour 23 minute flight showing 2087 total fuel consumption in lbs….I wish. Flying at ITT=790C, I seem to get TAS about 3% better and fuel flow about 7% worse. So similar net effect to Jon's 5% adjustor. That's what I run for a Foreflight profile. I haven't tried slowing down 3% and comparing fuel flow, though I imagine the profile might be pretty spot on for that. Mark, the I (which is slower) does get noticably better mileage than II/Evo, at least when comparing max cruise to max cruise. That might be part of your confusion. Your prior bird was a II and your new one is a I, right?
Last edited on 27 Mar 2024, 17:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Mar 2024, 17:06 |
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Joined: 11/08/12 Posts: 6335 Post Likes: +3813 Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
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Username Protected wrote: Does anyone have a ForeFlight profile I could borrow? 4 hour 23 minute flight showing 2087 total fuel consumption in lbs….I wish. Flying at ITT=790C, I seem to get TAS about 3% better and fuel flow about 7% worse. So similar net effect to Jon's 5% adjustor. That's what I run for a Foreflight profile. FWIW I fly ITT=780C to make those numbers I posted.
The book numbers set power by Tq and result in slightly lower power settings (with corresponding slightly less speed), which is why the fuel flow in the FF model needs a little boost upwards from the default. I think flight planned speed/time tends to work out without tweaking for me because of the nature of model versus real world - the slightly faster cruise speed makes up for a minute or two of vectoring and whatnot that the planning model doesn't account for.
_________________ -Jon C.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Mar 2024, 23:59 |
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Joined: 01/12/10 Posts: 406 Post Likes: +783 Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio P180, TTx
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Username Protected wrote: Does anyone have a ForeFlight profile I could borrow? 4 hour 23 minute flight showing 2087 total fuel consumption in lbs….I wish. Flying at ITT=790C, I seem to get TAS about 3% better and fuel flow about 7% worse. So similar net effect to Jon's 5% adjustor. That's what I run for a Foreflight profile. I haven't tried slowing down 3% and comparing fuel flow, though I imagine the profile might be pretty spot on for that. Mark, the I (which is slower) does get noticably better mileage than II/Evo, at least when comparing max cruise to max cruise. That might be part of your confusion. Your prior bird was a II and your new one is a I, right?
Yes that’s correct, but the average of 490 pph on that profile including takeoff and landing seems a bit optimistic.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 28 Mar 2024, 16:39 |
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Joined: 02/28/18 Posts: 39 Post Likes: +10
Aircraft: NA
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Username Protected wrote: Yes that’s correct, but the average of 490 pph on that profile including takeoff and landing seems a bit optimistic. It's not crazy on a long flight at FL390 at ISA and mid weight. Looking at some book numbers: CLIMB 687 lbs/hr for 0.45 hrs = 309 lbs CRUISE (MAX CRUISE 2000 RPM FL390) 456 lbs/hr for 3.73 hrs = 1701 lbs DESCENT (3000 FPM) 385 lbs/hr for 0.2 hrs = 77 lbs TOTAL = 2087 lbs for 4.38 hrs, or 476 lbs/hr on average of course before taxi and misc atc delays.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 29 Mar 2024, 12:17 |
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Joined: 08/02/09 Posts: 1343 Post Likes: +404 Company: Nantucket Rover Repair Location: Manchester, NH (MHT)
Aircraft: Cessna N337JJ
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Username Protected wrote: Congratulations Mark! Who is doing the interior? Is ICJS doing the panel? Nope. Aerosmith Aviation in Longview. Great shop. https://www.aerosmithaviation.comPaint, Interior, Full Garmin Panel. Going to have Simsair do the windshields and steel brakes when they get here (probably next year).
Are steel brakes an upgrade?
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 29 Mar 2024, 12:33 |
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Joined: 11/08/12 Posts: 6335 Post Likes: +3813 Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
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Username Protected wrote: Are steel brakes an upgrade? Original brakes are carbon. They stop very well. But super expensive to overhaul when worn, are a little grabby, and don’t hold plane statically on ground well when cold. But I believe the steel brakes are 80 lbs heavier. No free lunch.
_________________ -Jon C.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 29 Mar 2024, 17:38 |
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Joined: 01/12/10 Posts: 406 Post Likes: +783 Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio P180, TTx
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Username Protected wrote: Are steel brakes an upgrade? Original brakes are carbon. They stop very well. But super expensive to overhaul when worn, are a little grabby, and don’t hold plane statically on ground well when cold. But I believe the steel brakes are 80 lbs heavier. No free lunch.
This is true but remember with reverse you really don’t need their stopping power when they are warm…you need them to hold for the AF tests when they are cold.
As to weight penalty it’s 54lbs. ….significant but I’m never going to fill the seats anyway.
The overhaul cost of carbon brakes is somewhere north of 90,000 I have heard. Steel brakes? 12,000 at the most and typically less than 8,000. That’s huge.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 29 Mar 2024, 18:51 |
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Joined: 11/08/12 Posts: 6335 Post Likes: +3813 Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
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Username Protected wrote: This is true but remember with reverse you really don’t need their stopping power when they are warm…you need them to hold for the AF tests when they are cold.
As to weight penalty it’s 54lbs. ….significant but I’m never going to fill the seats anyway.
The overhaul cost of carbon brakes is somewhere north of 90,000 I have heard. Steel brakes? 12,000 at the most and typically less than 8,000. That’s huge. Right, I'm agreeing! Only detail is apparently someone told me 80 lbs versus 54 lbs. As you say, not huge for useful load, but it's back in CG a bit and I already have an aft CG issue. Having looked at your plane a while ago, your aft CG is even worse (unless you've weighed it and found it better, which is certainly plausible - I'd have weighed the thing). Not a deal breaker, but the aft CG is a bit of a weakness.
_________________ -Jon C.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 29 Mar 2024, 23:36 |
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Joined: 01/12/10 Posts: 406 Post Likes: +783 Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio P180, TTx
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Username Protected wrote: This is true but remember with reverse you really don’t need their stopping power when they are warm…you need them to hold for the AF tests when they are cold.
As to weight penalty it’s 54lbs. ….significant but I’m never going to fill the seats anyway.
The overhaul cost of carbon brakes is somewhere north of 90,000 I have heard. Steel brakes? 12,000 at the most and typically less than 8,000. That’s huge. Right, I'm agreeing! Only detail is apparently someone told me 80 lbs versus 54 lbs. As you say, not huge for useful load, but it's back in CG a bit and I already have an aft CG issue. Having looked at your plane a while ago, your aft CG is even worse (unless you've weighed it and found it better, which is certainly plausible - I'd have weighed the thing). Not a deal breaker, but the aft CG is a bit of a weakness.
I’m going to weigh it after avionics install. If it needs 250 lbs up front,,,, well that’s just the way that is. I rarely (more like never) fly with myself , my wife and 2 couples so it’s a non issue.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 30 Mar 2024, 00:26 |
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Joined: 11/08/12 Posts: 6335 Post Likes: +3813 Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
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Username Protected wrote: I’m going to weigh it after avionics install. If it needs 250 lbs up front,,,, well that’s just the way that is. Yeah, that’s what I’d probably do too. As you know, mine has more than 100lbs up front too. They all just tend to be aft cg.
_________________ -Jon C.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 31 Mar 2024, 11:20 |
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Joined: 08/02/09 Posts: 1343 Post Likes: +404 Company: Nantucket Rover Repair Location: Manchester, NH (MHT)
Aircraft: Cessna N337JJ
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Username Protected wrote: This is true but remember with reverse you really don’t need their stopping power when they are warm…you need them to hold for the AF tests when they are cold.
As to weight penalty it’s 54lbs. ….significant but I’m never going to fill the seats anyway.
The overhaul cost of carbon brakes is somewhere north of 90,000 I have heard. Steel brakes? 12,000 at the most and typically less than 8,000. That’s huge. I know in cars carbon brakes lasts alot longer. Is the true for aircraft? If so how much does it offset the higher cost?
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 31 Mar 2024, 12:46 |
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Joined: 01/07/21 Posts: 304 Post Likes: +302
Aircraft: M20J/R, Sr22, SR20
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Why is this one still listed on Controller?:
[Link]https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/193902841/2008-piaggio-p-180-avanti-ii-turboprop-aircraft[/Link]
It's been there a long time? Something wrong with it or price?
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