23 Apr 2024, 04:35 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 22 Nov 2017, 15:03 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6359 Post Likes: +5542 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote: Adam, so the other item is that it needs to be cheaper to operate on a p/mile basis than a comparable CJ jet.......cause that's the competition (IMHO)....... It's hard to beat turboprop fuel economy when you have jet speeds. The jet guys keep saying how effiecient they are up there, but when you crunch the numbers it's obvious that TP's still have a big advantage. This was a comparison I did for a fictional 5000nm trip: Turbo Commander 1000 (1700nm range, 300kts, 402pph, 3 stops ): Time: 16.66hrs Fuel stop time: 3hrs TOTAL TIME: 19.66hrs FUEL BURN: 999.6gal
Citation Mustang (1269nm range, 336kts, 540pph, 4 stops): Time: 14.88hrs Fuel stop time: 4hrs TOTAL TIME: 18.88hrs FUEL BURN: 1199.28gal
Pilatus PC12NG (1800nm range, 278kts, 360pph, 3 stops): Time: 17.98hr Fuel stop time: 3hrs TOTAL TIME: 21hrs FUEL BURN: 971gal
Piaggio Avanti (1398nm range, 364kt, 580pph, 4 stops): Time: 13.73hrs Fuel stop time: 4hrs TOTAL TIME: 17.73hrs FUEL BURN: 1188gal.
CJ4 (1800nm, 420kts, 1000pph, 3 stops): Time: 11.9hrs Fuel stop time: 3hrs TOTAL TIME: 14.9hrs FUEL BURN: 1776gal
CJ3 (1345nm, 408kts, 1096pph, 4 stops): Time: 12.25hrs Fuel stop time: 4hrs Total time: 16.25hrs Fuel burn: 2003gal.Now, fuel is all I've accounted for here, so that's just part of the cost. Engine reserves are however a lot lower than on Williams engines (which most seem to have). By a factor of 1.5-1.8, pretty much. The Avanti has a few high cost gotchas - one is the gear overhaul every 12th year/6000hr (not mandatory part 91) and the carbon brakes are rally costly (they're introducing a steel brake option soon via STC). It's also got a few timed items, but so does jets. It needs C and D checks once in awhile. Not earth shattering, but certainly more than an annual or yearly phase inspections. If efficiency is your criteria (total fuel burn/kts): 1. Avanti (3.26gal/kts) 2. Commander (3.32gal/kts) 3. PC12NG (3.49gal/kts) 4. Mustang (3.56gal/kts) 5. CJ4 (4.22gal/kts)Avanti has them all beat in efficiency (fuel burn/kts) - even the PC12.
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 22 Nov 2017, 18:32 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Username Protected wrote: The $650/hr P180. I'd love to see that. Will it achieve these numbers while being towed by the $380/hr PC-12? I take C&D as a baseline, normally an over-exaggerated one, but they factor in all costs including crew/refurbishment etc. As you can tell by the hours/times above the PC12 is slower than a jet, but I'm not sure that the positives on the Jet outweigh the positives on the PC12...........The Avanti is interesting. If Adam can prove we can run it for $650/hr, we're gonna start a whole new class warfare on BT.........
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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Username Protected
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 22 Nov 2017, 19:36 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Username Protected wrote: But maybe $1000/hr. DAMMO, I'm back to the CJ2+/CJ3 then..........
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 22 Nov 2017, 19:45 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6359 Post Likes: +5542 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote: But maybe $1000/hr. DAMMO, I'm back to the CJ2+/CJ3 then..........
If you think you can run a CJ3 for $1000/hr, I've got this nice bridge to sell you.
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 27 Nov 2017, 21:30 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6359 Post Likes: +5542 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Just got off the phone with an owner in the NorCal area - he finally called me back. He's pretty new to the P180 and had a PC12 before. He loves it, says he's had no real maintenance issues or surprises yet in the 18 months he's owned it. He has an ex-Avantair mechanic in Sacramento that services his and he says he's pretty hands-on owner who approaches maintenance pragmatically. Said the factory has really improved their support and service over the last years.
He said the 150hr checks, A, recently were extended to 200hrs by factory. Cost him $6K to do last time, so that's like an annual (lot less than on many planes I've owned). He also had a recent D check (every 3600hrs) done, and when I said "that's about 80K, right?" he answered "nooo, it's a lot less. I paid about $40K for mine". So that was encouraging to hear.
He did say the carbon brakes are very expensive at about $40K, but that Parker Aerospace has just released steel brakes for them that reduce cost by 70%.
He said door seal got replaced and still leaks, which was his only gripe. I asked how much the seal was, and he said $1K. That's about the same as for a Commander. Should be an easy fix. Apparently it's quite common problem on these and Learjet's (they share door design).
Anyway, here's a clip from the Forward Wing newsletter from the factory that mentions the new brakes, if anyone's interested. I have the full newsletters I can send and I also have a list of all the timed items and limits on these I can PM should anyone be so inclined.
Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
Last edited on 27 Nov 2017, 21:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 28 Nov 2017, 15:12 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Username Protected wrote: If you sold, excluding this thread, what planes are you considering? Citations? CJ3, Phenom does not offer me enough 'more' bang for the buck........ Time permitting and if I can stop posting on BT, I'm gonna do a cost comparison........interestingly the depreciation of the PC12 was inline with my expectations.......that's the number we have to figure out on the Avanti II and the CJ3
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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