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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2023, 05:57 
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Steve,
While Tony is having le dîner in countryside of France I’ll chime in.

My II empty weight is 8248 so full fuel useful load around 1100lbs.

On CASP, I still have it for now. Long term my gut says not worth it.
Deciding factor for me at the moment is expecting a quicker turn around if I have a part under CASP go out vs non insured.

Edit. Corrected for me small brain temporarily thinking total useful load was 12,500 pounds not 12,100.


LOL. :D

Steve,

My BEW is 8071.80. Gross weight is 12,100. Full fuel load is 2802. So, full fuel useful is 1,226.2.

I have CASP but have moved to the cheapest level -there are three - and IIRC its about $8k after discount from ICJS.


That is a very light II. My Garmin bird is 7970 (includes 100+ nose ballast)

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2023, 07:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
That is a very light II. My Garmin bird is 7970 (includes 100+ nose ballast)


Had it weighed a couple of years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2023, 07:34 
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Username Protected wrote:
That is a very light II. My Garmin bird is 7970 (includes 100+ nose ballast)


Had it weighed a couple of years ago.


No doubt of your weight Tony - likely weighed by the same folks that weighed mine. Always nice to have a skinnier version of the breed.

My 3 year W&B will be due next year. I’m very curious after having done P&I. Paint shop said Piaggio was ultra liberal in use of filler and expected I would lose some weight.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2023, 08:30 
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I said "well, this plane has a rep with a funny sound - maybe like a chainsaw".


I hadn't thought of that yesterday when one flew over, but sort of true. Different sound yes. But that is it. Not bothersome, just different. Whoever's plane it was, it looked great in the sunlight.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2023, 11:06 
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Thanks Tony and Matt for the numbers. I am trying to figure out if an Avanti II would realistically make a 1000mi trip with 6 people on board. I know interior variations can add weight quickly, but ideally I’d like to find one with the 6 executive seats and minimal cabinetry.

Thanks,
Steve


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2023, 11:18 
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1000mi plus reserves w/ 6 people (not including pilot) is unrealistic without perfect winds and getting way up high.

And depending on how heavy those 6 people are you might be challenged to keep balance in check with full tanks unless someone wants to sit on the potty.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2023, 11:27 
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Matt,

What would you consider max range at normal cruise power with 6 people including pilots? Do you think you could make the 1000 mile trip if you pull the power back? Also for weight and balance, how would it look with two pilots and 4 in the back plus some weight in the baggage?


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2023, 11:39 
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Others may be able to provide better data points. Over the last 2 years I think I've been up maybe 5 times. So I have a limited dataset.

I've attached a screenshot of the POH. I see an average fuel burn of around 760lb/hr with climb etc so about 3.5hr max flight time. With reserves, we are on the ground at about 800nm near max, and the fattest person wins the contest to sit on the lav.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2023, 12:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
1000mi plus reserves w/ 6 people (not including pilot) is unrealistic without perfect winds and getting way up high.

And depending on how heavy those 6 people are you might be challenged to keep balance in check with full tanks unless someone wants to sit on the potty.


This has not been my experience. Maybe our W&B or definitions of perfect winds/way up high are different. Played around with ForeFlight to find something around 1000nm and still winds. I've never had W&B issues when heavy/full fuel except when nearing max ZFW, which for me is 8 guys and short flight/light fuel load.

Also, I have modified the ForeFlight performance to match my actual performance (lowered speed a touch & increased fuel burn a touch).


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2023, 16:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
the fattest person wins the contest to sit on the lav.

I suspect an avionics upgrade will remove a lot of weight from the nose, like mine did in the V. I dropped 380 lbs and the CG moved several inches aft.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2023, 17:23 
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I have done 900 miles into the wind, into busy airspace, with 8 adults, including a 300lb person.

My full fuel payload is 1315. 2800 lbs fuel and 3.5hrs blocking 365tas works every time for the rough planning math. Almost every flight I do is over 1000 miles in the plane. That’s a perfect distance for it. Unless I need to fly at FL400, weight doesn’t seem to impact much. Very high ISA does, like +20 at FL370 will slow you down a bit when heavy.

The times you have issue will be regional low weather that eliminates all reasonable alternates. That hurts most turbines range in my experience.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2023, 22:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
I am trying to figure out if an Avanti II would realistically make a 1000mi trip with 6 people on board.

The II is slightly more fuel per mile, but… here are my W&B numbers for the I.

Empty 8116
MZFW 10200
(Max payload 2084)
Max gross 12150 ramp

Assume 6 people @ 180 lbs each plus 25 lb bags, payload is 1230 lbs.

12150 lbs - 8116 - 1230 = 2804 lbs for fuel. Full fuel is 2802 lbs, so it leaves me 2 lbs under gross :).

Can definitely go 1000 miles on full fuel. No wind 1000 nm is about 1750 lb @370 per ForeFlight, plus about 700 lbs reserve. Which is plenty of reserve. Plus a bonus 350 lbs fuel. So 1000nm fairly easy.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 27 Apr 2023, 00:25 
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Thank you all for the answers and information. Did you have any issues with forward CG with an Avanti I prior to Garmin upgrades or a standard Avanti II with heavier avionics upfront? Having to make someone sit in the lav sounds less than ideal, I’m curious if that’s common or possible unique to Matt W.

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 27 Apr 2023, 05:24 
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I do have the full Garmin upgrade. My empty weight is 7950.

I know I'm in the minority here but if your regular missions are a full plane an 1000nm, the Avanti seems a stretch to me.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 27 Apr 2023, 06:14 
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Joined: 09/26/09
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Company: ElitAire
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Username Protected wrote:
Thank you all for the answers and information. Did you have any issues with forward CG with an Avanti I prior to Garmin upgrades or a standard Avanti II with heavier avionics upfront? Having to make someone sit in the lav sounds less than ideal, I’m curious if that’s common or possible unique to Matt W.

Thanks


Hey Steve. If you have ForeFlight with W&B I can send you my profile. PM me your email address. I’m sure someone on the board here would share their non Garmin I or II empty weight and CG so you can model your typical loading.

I bought the Avanti for 850nm trips. I never go with full fuel. Not because I need to trade it for payload - but because I don’t like carrying around extra weight that is not needed. This includes arrivals into S FL where they tend to bring us down low early.


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