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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2023, 21:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
Hey Jon. Are you on an engine program?

No. Who do you use for your program?

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2023, 21:54 
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Pratt Whitney. Plane was on it when I purchased. Seemed wise to continue - not sure if I will after OH - but that's still 1000 hours in the future.

Feels like a decent portion of the fleet is on the program...at least when looking at planes that go on the market


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2023, 21:56 
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Username Protected wrote:

Is the rumor about the RK serial numbers true? If true, is the implication about a few more degs being Ok true?



I don't know - but I have RK0069 & 70...darn early in that series.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2023, 22:57 
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[quote="Jon Carlson"]
I think I remain under the delusion that my wife may want to be able to talk to me. It is just so far back there!

[quote]

I'm able to face reality... :D

I find that my wife plugs into a movie or conversations with other pax if there are any but I never see or hear from her til we land. Now, when I'm hungry or thirsty I find that the page button works really well when you need someone's attention.

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Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2023, 23:43 
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Jon - I have heard something similar about ‘upgraded burner cans’ on the -66. Wonder if that’s what you are referencing.

I don’t get why you could not run a straight -66 at 790 though. The limit for continuous power per book is 820. You should be able to run it there all day and it make TBO.

Matt - if I was in a program my engine would know one setting. 820.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 00:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
Jon - I have heard something similar about ‘upgraded burner cans’ on the -66. Wonder if that’s what you are referencing.

Totally could be. I’m trying to figure out the tech details of what I was really being told.

As for 790, I don’t know enough to make a decision informed by engineering. Other than I am pretty sure I don’t want to have to overhaul if I can avoid it.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 00:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don't know - but I have RK0069 & 70...darn early in that series.

I don’t think it’s that early in the series, given they are only installed on P180s. Your airframe s/n is 1063, mine is 1067, you have RK0069-70, I have RK0077-78.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 14:03 
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Type cert for the plain PT6A-66 is 830 and the PT6A-66B is 840 max cont.

And there is a service bulletin from Pratt on upgrading hot sections during overhaul for the standard PT6A-66. I'll have to see if I can find it and if it makes reference to specific serial numbers already having it.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 14:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
Type cert for the plain PT6A-66 is 830 and the PT6A-66B is 840 max cont.

And there is a service bulletin from Pratt on upgrading hot sections during overhaul for the standard PT6A-66. I'll have to see if I can find it and if it makes reference to specific serial numbers already having it.

Good info, would be cool to see related service bulletins.

Do you know if there were notable physical changes to the B that enables the higher limitations?

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 15:20 
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I don't know specifically on the changes.

I had an old email that referenced PW SB 14112 but can't find public version to download.

When I google it, I get an article for the TBM about increased TBO and it specifically calls out serial numbers. The date is about 5 years after the RK serial numbers on the PT6A-66 popped up.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=m ... 64748101e3


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2023, 16:32 
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Username Protected wrote:

I had an old email that referenced PW SB 14112 but can't find public version to download.

CAMP just says my engines were c/w at manufacture. Says title of SB is “ INTRODUCTION OF ACCESSORY GEARBOX ASSEMBLY WITH SEPARATE COUPLING SHAFT AND DRIVE GEARSHAFT, SERVICE BULLETIN”

Doesn’t sound too much like related to running higher temps though.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2023, 06:51 
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DISCLAIMER: Topic may affect safety and certified performances. DON'T TRY ANYTHING AT HOME ;)

PT6 certified power limits are different from the "installed" limits certified on the A/C.

Specifically, the -66B engine is really a 950 SHP engine limited on the A/C to the same max output of the original -66 (850 SHP) to stay within the propeller torque limits.

Even "installed" ITT is limited (-66B engine alone is certified from PWC at max continuous ITT of 840 °C) so you are not allowed to go beyond 830 °C ITT as per AFM chapter 2, no matter what engines/SB have installed. I guess this ITT limitation was kept to ease transition from -66 to -66B, but I'm not 100% sure being powerplant not my area of specific competence.

The PT6A-66B Engine is capable to provide higher torque output at high altitude.

As an example, at MAX POWER @FL410 the -66 delivers a torque of 42.5% while the -66B delivers 47.5% of the maximum "installed" output of 2230 lbs/ft. for both Avanti I and II (EVO limits are slightly higher thanks to new props). Difference may be as high as 7% w.r.t. specific operating points (altitude, temperature, etc.). This is the reason why the Avanti II is slightly faster (and also time to climb benefits from this) when compared to Avanti.

PWC SB14112 only address installation of a different accessory drive shaft to ease maintenance and contributes, with other SBs, to increase the TBO. It has nothing to do with the ITT.

I remember I did once a comparison between different installed and theoretical achievable values but I don't have easy access to my notes right now.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2023, 10:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
Jon - I have heard something similar about ‘upgraded burner cans’ on the -66. Wonder if that’s what you are referencing.

Totally could be. I’m trying to figure out the tech details of what I was really being told.

As for 790, I don’t know enough to make a decision informed by engineering. Other than I am pretty sure I don’t want to have to overhaul if I can avoid it.


Jon, where do your temps fall if you set power by torque/power to book settings?

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2023, 11:14 
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Username Protected wrote:

Jon, where do your temps fall if you set power by torque/power to book settings?

That is a great question and one which I realized I should start finding out. :)

Yes, I realized after pondering a while I don’t quite know where the 780 number comes from, I believe it is just kind of where folks say to run it for conservative operation.

Limitations page(s) in the manual are here, the note #8 is the only place it mentions an ITT for cruise other than the 820 continuous limit. It says set cruise power per the table.
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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2023, 11:19 
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Username Protected wrote:

PT6 certified power limits are different from the "installed" limits certified on the A/C.

Specifically, the -66B engine is really a 950 SHP engine limited on the A/C to the same max output of the original -66 (850 SHP) to stay within the propeller torque limits.

Daniele,
Thanks for the great background, that helps a lot.

FWIW, I’m not going to change where I operate based on the RK serial number thing. I do still wonder where the person’s idea about RK serial numbers comes from though.

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