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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2021, 18:50 
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The age thing is interesting. I am a very fit 41yo. I know a lot of 60-70 year olds. Given relative sports performance, even for a 60yo friend who was a world famous athlete 30 years ago, once people pass about 55 performance drops significantly. I do wonder if training can correct for that, or how much?

Without being negatively affected by a medical condition, it has lots to do with lifestyle (e.g., lack of motivation or desire for learning new things; for real outdoors physical activities); type & quantity of foods eaten; and self-indulgence. IMO


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2021, 18:54 
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Can’t imagine a jet requires a whole lot less foot.


Never flown a jet but the engines are very close to centerline, I think there was a global that lost an engine and the pilot couldn't tell which one it was.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2021, 20:27 
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Never flown a jet but the engines are very close to centerline, I think there was a global that lost an engine and the pilot couldn't tell which one it was.


Some designs have the engines kick out, 1 or 2 degrees to make it easier to read the ball. I think the Cessna Mustang is one example.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2021, 20:32 
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Tony welcome to the simulator believers club. I’ve been a pilot for 45 years. The workout I get at FSI can’t be done in the airplane. On a recurrent if you indicate a desire for the to go easy they will accommodate. If you ask for a real test you will get that.

At least on the Mustang the sim is far more yaw sensitive with an engine out. In a V1 cut you better paste your foot to the rudder stop or you won’t look good. The real airplane is much more stable.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2021, 23:37 
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Tony, thanks for write-up.

I do think the sim is much less forgiving than real aircraft, though. Designed that way, of course. I saw this at SimCom and all the recurrent IFR sim sessions I've had.

One of the things I recognized from your story is how it's easy to fall into the piston think and rush an engine shutdown. I shut down the wrong engine at SimCom on takeoff and promptly crashed, until instructor said: "take your time, don't shut down anything until 1000ft - you have enough power to just fly out and then deal with the shutdown". Thought that was a good lesson.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 08:57 
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I appreciate all the comments and feedback. I'm hopeful my experiences will be helpful for some and I'm learning too.

Anthony, I'm not sure what you mean by this statement:

Username Protected wrote:
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Would you feel more comfortable in a jet on efato?


From conversations with a number of pilots who fly jets, and have flown turbo props, it seems that the power available in a jet helps a lot. As I mentioned in my original post it was eye opening to see just how little climb capability the P180 has at sea level on a standard day and 12,000 pounds. In fact, on one V1 cut I said "we're not climbing" to which my instructor replied "yes, you are, look closer". Jeez. 100 FPM is hard to see on the VSI. And it is sobering to think about. So, I think the answer to your question is yes. Obviously, how closely aligned the engines are to the centerline, or how they are installed, matters as has been pointed out. But power is a really useful tool close to the ground.

Carlo, thanks for the info on the pointers. It's interesting. When you look at it the important is probably what you are used to using. I remember switching from a PC to a Mac years ago and it took quite a while to get comfortable with the differences. Switching back was equally difficult, uncomfortable or consciously requiring of thought however you want to describe it. But I don't recall ever being under the kind of mental stress and fatigue using a desktop computer that I felt after three hours in the sim, with 5 hours of sleep and nothing in my system besides a Clif bar when I had to execute a night IMC departure in mountainous terrain with OEI and no autopilot. That's where the brain starts arguing with itself and decision making gets really, really hard. And when you know you're wrong getting the correct actions decided on and instituted just doesn't happen as fast as it should.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 09:59 
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Tony, given what you know now would you prefer the SETP over the TETP if you were flying yourself?

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 10:07 
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Tony, awesome post(s). Thank you for sharing.

Re:boot - curious what power setting you had on the other engine when simulating engine out in the plane? I have to look back at my notes on what we used, but I do recall that an extra 50lbs changed the foot pressure significantly. I did play around with flight idle on ‘bad’ engine and it requires a very healthy push but still less than the mu2. Look forward to trying in the sim.

Re:fatigue - I think mental fitness (and fatigue) is harder to measure than physical. I have all but quit flying at night for this reason. If I am taking off at night it means I worked all day. I can’t hit a PR on the bike after a full stress day at work. No chance I am at 100% in airplane either. Your comment on food was interesting too - I have found that can really my mental sharpness. Bulletproof coffee if you don’t already drink it. Great to keep the cans in the plane too.


Re:jets being more simple - interesting observation from the other pilots. Compared to mu2, workload of Piaggio seems much less. Outside of fadec and autothrottles I wonder what is simpler on jet? Piaggio seems to already have less steps than pc12, Citation Ultra or MU2. Do you find it more complex than TBM? If so, in what way? Ground handling is only area I can immediately think of.

I was in an old citation with a new panel and cessna ap recently. That was as, if not more, complex than MU2. I was really surprised. I think all the turbine stuff is complex and once you normalize for panel, they all have to be flown very regularly to stay safe.


Last edited on 12 Sep 2021, 10:52, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 10:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
Tony, given what you know now would you prefer the SETP over the TETP if you were flying yourself?


Well, if he was going to FSI and training OEI on a nite mountain departure in a SETP, the sim would have been going ‘boom boom’ more often :)


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 11:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
Tony, given what you know now would you prefer the SETP over the TETP if you were flying yourself?


Well, if he was going to FSI and training OEI on a nite mountain departure in a SETP, the sim would have been going ‘boom boom’ more often :)


Happens twice as less in the SETP than the TETP :D
I think that the PC12 is easier to fly than the Piaggio having never sat in or flown the Piaggio although Brad had invited me over when he was in tRide.

I'm planning on being in Cali in early October and I was planning on seeing Adam and so maybe doing a comparison fly off may be an interesting thing to look at.

I think that 10hrs per month and at least 3-4 flights are necessary to maintain currency.
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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 13:09 
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"I think that the PC12 is easier to fly than the Piaggio having never sat in or flown the Piaggio although Brad had invited me over when he was in tRide."

Come up to Denver sometime and we can ride around! Normalizing for speed, the planes are extremely similar in workload.

I personally find Garmin panel a little quicker single pilot that ball pointer device in Apex, but I am sure that just comes with reps. Both take off with flaps, both land with flaps. I thought the Avanti II with ProLine was much more complex SP due to how data entry worked on FMS. Again though, I imagine w/reps its no issue.

Piaggio significantly easier to hand fly, trim and hold flight director. Trim much more precise and you never touch roll or rudder trim. You can also pretty much fly around with feet flat on the floor if you want, even with YD off. I recall PC12 requiring a little more rudder management due to torque effects and waggy tail.

PC12 AP might have had a few more modes (2008 NG) but nothing that I can remember changing workload. Does yours have coupled VNAV?

Managing the engine (s) is identical, you are just pushing two levers vs one. Honestly, the speed on departure and approach is probably the biggest difference in workload - you are doing the same things you just have less time to do it. Piaggio seems a little more stable hand flying an approach in turbulence thanks to higher wing loading. I find that makes the plane 'easier' to fly precisely.

Systems are a little more complex on Piaggio, but not I don't know if that impacts much in routine flights and the emergency procedures are pretty darn straightforward. Icing, etc, all fairly similar. Pressurization automatic in both.

I think with as much as you fly PC12, you would not detect any extra 'work' flying a Piaggio. Pilots who have flown other twin t-props and ridden with me have all thought it was lower workload than other twin TPs.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 13:41 
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My experience the first time in the sim with a V1 cut was eye opening. I gave it the amount of rudder I'm used to and promptly flew into a hangar. I've thought about that a lot. My conclusion is that I'm glad that happened. Failure you live through and learn something from is incredibly useful.


Are you sure the force in the sim is realistic? I flew in a 414 sim at RTC in Florida and it was not remotely accurate.

I imagine the Level D sims are, but I've been surprised at the poor software used at most of these training centers below that level. They seem to be based on either an old version of MSFS (or Prepar3d, which is the same thing) or X-Plane. Come to think of it the two Level D sims I was in appeared to be as well.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 13:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
Tony, given what you know now would you prefer the SETP over the TETP if you were flying yourself?


No.

When I started sim training the first V1 cut ended with me dead in a hangar on the right side of the runway because I didn't know what to expect, thus wasn't prepared and certainly not proficient. The second time was ugly but I survived. After that it got better. Every single time though in an SETP I'd have been dead in a hangar at the end of the runway. This isn't a single vs. twin argument. It's just a fact that if you lift off near the end of the runway the twin has more options. Proficiency is key and that's why we train.

The P180 goes to FL41 where the TBM only goes to FL310. I had a pressurization emergency in the TBM. It was frightening but there was 1-2 minutes of useful consciousness. In the P180 we did a simulation at FL40 where time of useful consciousness is 9-10 seconds. Not a SETP vs. TETP issue but one of capability. Both emergencies require the same steps but the more capable airplane you have to move faster and there is more room for error.

If I was still flying the TBM and only flying once a month I'd have the same issues with scan degradation and general proficiency and I'd feel the same way about the need for training and a second pilot. I often took a second pilot along in the TBM if I was working, had long days or the weather potentials were beyond my comfort level. And while my personal minimums are currently higher than they were in TBM days that's because of flying frequency not the airplane.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 14:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
Tony, awesome post(s). Thank you for sharing.

Re:boot - curious what power setting you had on the other engine when simulating engine out in the plane? I have to look back at my notes on what we used, but I do recall that an extra 50lbs changed the foot pressure significantly. I did play around with flight idle on ‘bad’ engine and it requires a very healthy push but still less than the mu2. Look forward to trying in the sim.


One nice thing about the sim compared to the plane is that the brakes will hold at full power. So, every takeoff I gave myself a break and set full power +/- 97% before brake release. We were always 12,000 pounds so Vr was 120.

Quote:
Re:fatigue - I think mental fitness (and fatigue) is harder to measure than physical. I have all but quit flying at night for this reason. If I am taking off at night it means I worked all day.


I have 18 hours of night flight in my log book. I was never willing to fly at night in a single engine airplane, including the TBM. I have a very busy schedule (I have a full time employee who just manages my schedule) so flying home at the end of a day is tempting. I just don't.

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I can’t hit a PR on the bike after a full stress day at work. No chance I am at 100% in airplane either. Your comment on food was interesting too - I have found that can really my mental sharpness. Bulletproof coffee if you don’t already drink it. Great to keep the cans in the plane too.


I am a bulletproof coffee drinker too - though I find Dave a little tedious...I should have thought of that. My sim briefs were at 6 and we started flying at 7. That's a bit off my typical schedule to start with and there are zero restaurants open at 5 for breakfast, at least anywhere I could find near the airport. So, nutrition was suboptimal.


Quote:
Re:jets being more simple - interesting observation from the other pilots. Compared to mu2, workload of Piaggio seems much less. Outside of fadec and autothrottles I wonder what is simpler on jet? Piaggio seems to already have less steps than pc12, Citation Ultra or MU2. Do you find it more complex than TBM? If so, in what way? Ground handling is only area I can immediately think of.


There are more systems on a P180 than a TBM. Just look at the fact that there are twice as many circuit breakers for example. Have a look at the QRH for the P180 - much more detail in there to parse than for the TBM. In the QRH there are 3 different wing deice failure checklists for example - much simpler in the TBM. (I can't speak to the jet differences vs. turboprops as I only have a few hours in the right seat of a few jets. Some of our more experienced guys can speak to that. I do think managing systems, by which I mean avionics mostly is a function of repetition. I have thousands of reps on Garmin G600/750 or G1000 equipment. Hundreds on PL21. That is getting better and easier.

Quote:
I was in an old citation with a new panel and cessna ap recently. That was as, if not more, complex than MU2. I was really surprised. I think all the turbine stuff is complex and once you normalize for panel, they all have to be flown very regularly to stay safe.


Completely agree which is why I'm flying with experienced and highly current (i.e. pro pilots) P180II pilots in the right seat. I will continue to do that either forever or until I am confident that frequency has resulted in a very high level of proficiency. For me, to do otherwise, would be incredibly irresponsible.

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Last edited on 12 Sep 2021, 14:33, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2021, 14:17 
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My experience the first time in the sim with a V1 cut was eye opening. I gave it the amount of rudder I'm used to and promptly flew into a hangar. I've thought about that a lot. My conclusion is that I'm glad that happened. Failure you live through and learn something from is incredibly useful.


Are you sure the force in the sim is realistic? I flew in a 414 sim at RTC in Florida and it was not remotely accurate.

I imagine the Level D sims are, but I've been surprised at the poor software used at most of these training centers below that level. They seem to be based on either an old version of MSFS (or Prepar3d, which is the same thing) or X-Plane. Come to think of it the two Level D sims I was in appeared to be as well.


John,

The P80 sim at FSI is a Level D sim. I think that's why I've been there with Polish Air Rescue, Italian Air Force and Argentine military pilots.

I have had one guy say to me that he thought the springs on the rudder pedals in the sim were harder than the plane. I suppose that's possible. On the other hand they seemed to me, in other use (outside the EFATO effort) to feel just like the plane. Certainly roll and pitch forces felt just like the plane. Honestly, at Simcom I felt like I was having to fly a video game (non Level D sim) with twitchy, light force controls. Highly unrealistic. In the FSI Piaggio sim it feels real and since you're almost always looking inside (and when you look out all you ever see are clouds anyway) the whole experience is pretty indistinguishable from real. The former Avantair instructors also swear by the sim fidelity too by the way and they average about 6,000 hours in the airplane.
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