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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 12:20 
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No, it does not take headwind into account. So, you'd have to make some sort of amalgamation of FLTplan numbers and POH numbers. I might be showing my ignorance here, but I'm assuming FLTplan numbers does not take into account any POH or specific airframe factors. I've never used that site.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 12:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
No, it does not take headwind into account. So, you'd have to make some sort of amalgamation of FLTplan numbers and POH numbers. I might be showing my ignorance here, but I'm assuming FLTplan numbers does not take into account any POH or specific airframe factors. I've never used that site.


For fltplan.com there are templates (or you can build your own) for different airframes with fuel burn and speed by altitude, and burn in the climb/descent. So it will give you fuel burns at a range of altitudes taking into account the winds.

But it assumes a single burn and airspeed at each altitude, so I don't think you can see the effect of a different power setting.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 12:40 
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Departing tomorrow at around 11,800lbs

Mark or others?
Will I be able to climb direct to FL380 or need to stop briefly at FL360.
Showing ISA +/-2 tomorrow

Books shows 8 minutes to climb from FL360 to FL380 leaving at full gross.
I’ll need to be patient on last 2,000 feet.
Min climb speed planned is L/D (green line) plus 5 knots to give margin.

Climbed to FL380 couple weeks ago coming out of Rochester,NY at take off weight of 11,300 with no issues.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 14:33 
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Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
Plan a fuel stop and go see...

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 20:39 
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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 21:24 
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I can climb to fl380 in the I without trouble at gross. Above that things slow down a bit when heavy. My understanding is the II is better up high.

I have found foreflight to be extremely accurate. The wind forecast is very useful and how I pick altitudes on every flight.

Pulling power does help if you need to stretch things a bit, although you can usually achieve the same by climbing to fl400 or fl410. Fl380 is a happy place for the plane. It does fine at fl400 but tas drops a bit.

I have generally found strong headwinds the door to door time is faster flying in the 20s and stopping for gas vs going slower up high and fighting stronger winds. The plane hauls in the upper 20s and the fuel flows are not that bad.

Remember on the fuel - it is showing you lbs so you cannot fill the tanks when the fuel is warm and get 2800lbs, you run out of volume. Fill up on a 100 degree day where the truck has been outside and it’s really obvious.

Randomly read that the latest Gulfstream has a new feature where you can get the max fuel lbs at any temps. Fuel tanks have excess space to accommodate for the warm days.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 22:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
I can climb to fl380 in the I without trouble at gross. Above that things slow down a bit when heavy. My understanding is the II is better up high.

I have found foreflight to be extremely accurate. The wind forecast is very useful and how I pick altitudes on every flight.

Pulling power does help if you need to stretch things a bit, although you can usually achieve the same by climbing to fl400 or fl410. Fl380 is a happy place for the plane. It does fine at fl400 but tas drops a bit.

I have generally found strong headwinds the door to door time is faster flying in the 20s and stopping for gas vs going slower up high and fighting stronger winds. The plane hauls in the upper 20s and the fuel flows are not that bad.

Remember on the fuel - it is showing you lbs so you cannot fill the tanks when the fuel is warm and get 2800lbs, you run out of volume. Fill up on a 100 degree day where the truck has been outside and it’s really obvious.

Randomly read that the latest Gulfstream has a new feature where you can get the max fuel lbs at any temps. Fuel tanks have excess space to accommodate for the warm days.


That sounds dumb. Are you telling me that on the cold days that excess space goes away? :scratch:


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 09:02 
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No, the tank limit is lbs and the volume is such that on cold days there is excess, unused volume at the max lbs.

In other words, topping off is weight not volume limited but you are always guaranteed to be able to get the max weight. Apparently this is a big enough deal on something ye size of a Gulfstream that they are marketing it as a unique feature.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 10:51 
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For a TBM700 here is the effect of power with a headwind. 90 kt headwind, FL280, ISA, fuel left at an 800nm leg.

You only gain 9 gallons going 800nm by using Long Range Cruise, and add significantly to the time.

GpH TAS Endur G/S fuel to 800nm
Max Cruise 52 297 4.23 197 192
Nor Cruise 50 290 4.40 190 190
Inter Cruise 45 276 4.89 176 184
LRC 36 237 6.11 137 183

Wind (tail+/head-) -90

The crossover point is 102kt headwind. At that point Max Cruise burns the same as Long Range Cruise to 800nm, 213g. Over that headwind you burn less by using Max Cruise.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 11:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
No, the tank limit is lbs and the volume is such that on cold days there is excess, unused volume at the max lbs.

In other words, topping off is weight not volume limited but you are always guaranteed to be able to get the max weight. Apparently this is a big enough deal on something ye size of a Gulfstream that they are marketing it as a unique feature.


Just think how many more Avantis could have been sold if they'd advertised it as a 2600 lb tank... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 11:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
No, the tank limit is lbs and the volume is such that on cold days there is excess, unused volume at the max lbs.

In other words, topping off is weight not volume limited but you are always guaranteed to be able to get the max weight. Apparently this is a big enough deal on something ye size of a Gulfstream that they are marketing it as a unique feature.


So they created a max fuel weight limit? Strange.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 11:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
For a TBM700 here is the effect of power with a headwind. 90 kt headwind, FL280, ISA, fuel left at an 800nm leg.

You only gain 9 gallons going 800nm by using Long Range Cruise, and add significantly to the time.

GpH TAS Endur G/S fuel to 800nm
Max Cruise 52 297 4.23 197 192
Nor Cruise 50 290 4.40 190 190
Inter Cruise 45 276 4.89 176 184
LRC 36 237 6.11 137 183

Wind (tail+/head-) -90

The crossover point is 102kt headwind. At that point Max Cruise burns the same as Long Range Cruise to 800nm, 213g. Over that headwind you burn less by using Max Cruise.


Numbers look all wrong......
Maybe it's me.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 12:11 
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Username Protected wrote:

Numbers look all wrong......
Maybe it's me.



They're all there.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 12:20 
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Joined: 04/24/18
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Location: NYC
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Username Protected wrote:
For a TBM700 here is the effect of power with a headwind. 90 kt headwind, FL280, ISA, fuel left at an 800nm leg.

You only gain 9 gallons going 800nm by using Long Range Cruise, and add significantly to the time.

GpH TAS Endur G/S fuel to 800nm. Range
Max Cruise 52 297 4.23 207 192. 4.23*207=875
Nor Cruise 50 290 4.40 200 190. 4.40*200=880
Inter Cruise 45 276 4.89 186 184. 4.89*186=909
LRC 36 237 6.11 147 183. 6.11*147=898

Wind (tail+/head-) -90

The crossover point is 102kt headwind. At that point Max Cruise burns the same as Long Range Cruise to 800nm, 213g. Over that headwind you burn less by using Max Cruise.


I changed it to reflect-90kt. Was showing-100.
So it looks like into a stiff headwind intermediate cruise is best range but overall all are similar. I would add though that it looks like you used 220 gallons as useable trip fuel (70 gallons reserve) however, if you're using lrc at 36 gph you could run another 20 gallons ~35 minutes for 980nm range.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 13:14 
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Username Protected wrote:

I changed it to reflect-90kt. Was showing-100.
So it looks like into a stiff headwind intermediate cruise is best range but overall all are similar. I would add though that it looks like you used 220 gallons as useable trip fuel (70 gallons reserve) however, if you're using lrc at 36 gph you could run another 20 gallons ~35 minutes for 980nm range.


Your reserve should probably be the same regardless of profile.


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