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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 16:40 
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Here’s my take. With thousands of hours in king airs, the Avanti II is like moving into the next century. The plane makes a King Air seem like an old truck (and I do love king airs), but hands down there’s absolutely no comparison. It’s easy to fly single pilot and the proline 21 is easy to work with. Up front is super quiet and the boss loves it in the cabin. There’s just nothing that handles like it and nothing that can compare on a per hour cost basis. Only thing I could maybe wish for would be 500lbs or so more fuel.


Oh, wow! Nice to hear from someone that flies them! Tell us more - what's your main mission?

I heard there's a 60gal aux tank that takes the place of the closet, but that it's pretty expensive to install. I've also heard from other users, just like you, that they think it's a little short on fuel. 420gal is a little light for such a big aircraft.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 15 Jul 2019, 20:53 
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All the talk about Cirrus jets and I'd completely forgotten about the Avanti. You might be leading me into temptation...

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 08:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
Here’s my take. With thousands of hours in king airs, the Avanti II is like moving into the next century. The plane makes a King Air seem like an old truck (and I do love king airs), but hands down there’s absolutely no comparison. It’s easy to fly single pilot and the proline 21 is easy to work with. Up front is super quiet and the boss loves it in the cabin. There’s just nothing that handles like it and nothing that can compare on a per hour cost basis. Only thing I could maybe wish for would be 500lbs or so more fuel.


Oh, wow! Nice to hear from someone that flies them! Tell us more - what's your main mission?

I heard there's a 60gal aux tank that takes the place of the closet, but that it's pretty expensive to install. I've also heard from other users, just like you, that they think it's a little short on fuel. 420gal is a little light for such a big aircraft.

Adam and Richard - some friends of mine in Queretaro are about to close on the purchase of an Avanti I. I tried to steer them away, but they were swayed by the price, the supposedly good condition of the A/C and perceived bang for the buck (someone has sold them the idea they can fly this thing for less than 1000 per hour - thoughts?). These guys are non-pilots but I respect their business sense.

Do you know of a good place to get operating advice for the P180? Also, they want to use the same 1500 hour pilot who flew their Mirage but is very short on turbine and multi experience. What would you recommend wrt to getting this guy up to speed? FlightSafety?

Last edited on 05 Aug 2019, 08:25, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 08:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
Here’s my take. With thousands of hours in king airs, the Avanti II is like moving into the next century. The plane makes a King Air seem like an old truck (and I do love king airs), but hands down there’s absolutely no comparison. It’s easy to fly single pilot and the proline 21 is easy to work with. Up front is super quiet and the boss loves it in the cabin. There’s just nothing that handles like it and nothing that can compare on a per hour cost basis. Only thing I could maybe wish for would be 500lbs or so more fuel.

Nobody has every questioned the awesomeness of the Avanti. Can you give any info on reliability, service and parts availability.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 09:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
Adam and Richard - some friends of mine in Queretaro are about to close on the purchase of an Avanti I. I tried to steer them away, but they were swayed by the price, the supposedly good condition of the A/C and perceived bang for the buck (someone has sold them the idea they can fly this thing for less than 1000 per hour - thoughts?). These guys are non-pilots but I respect their business sense.

Do you know of a good place to get operating advice for the P180? Also, they want to use the same 1500 hour pilot who flew their Mirage but is very short on turbine and multi experience. What would you recommend wrt to getting this guy up to speed? FlightSafety?


FlightSafety has good reputation and are thorough, but it is costly. Simsair do it in the customers airframe. If it were me (and I'm low time myself but almost all of it multi), I think doing the initial in the aircraft would probably be the best for me personally, as it is more tactile and I retain better when it's 'for real'. The P180 lands fast and demands a bit from its pilot in that phase, so it's good to experience that away from the sim. Then after that I'd go sim-based for recurring every second time, I think. Just to keep sharp on those emergency procedures.

I don't think you can fly a P180 for $1000/hr, but it's probably very close if you're vigilant. I would think it's a $1100-1200/hr plane. You're pretty much confined to using service centers on a complex machine like this. Banyan Air here in US the most widespread P180 repair station, but there are others. Not sure what the situation is in Mexico, but prob less prevalence.

You also have to take into account that the 6000hr/12 year gear overhaul, which is optional part 91 in FAA land. If it's XB- reg it probably isn't (seems that SB's in most CAA jurisdictions are regarded as AD's). That's a $250-350K expense and can make the difference between achieving a low hourly operating cost or not.

P180's need a bit of runway and are also not great climbers, so that might affect where you can base it.

Please keep us informed about how they progress and what their ownership experiences are. It's always very useful info to add to the collective knowledge base! :thumbup:

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Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


Last edited on 06 Aug 2019, 04:12, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 18:07 
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Thank you Adam - I will keep you posted of how these owners do on this purchase. The aircraft has been US based since new, it is not an Avantair bird, and the ownership/AW/logbook research appears to indicate a clean airplane at a low price. I am still a skeptical on the price (1.1M with 8K hours and 2K left on the engines) - I just believe when something looks too good to be true, it probably is - I just haven't seen the smoking gun yet. I'll let you know.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 18:24 
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no way you're running that bird for less than 2k an hour...…..just no way...….howzit Alex, how you been mate?

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 19:08 
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8K hour orphaned airframe for $1.1MM so right there the $1.1MM is gone and should be included in the hourly operating costs. So, $1.1MM divided by 1000 hours (who knows how long they'll own it?) is $1100 an hour. Now you need to run and store the thing. I think $3K+ per hour.

I wouldn't buy an 8K hour Citation much less an 8K hour airframe most folks have never heard of.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 19:28 
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Jason - as I stated on my original post, this is not something I would do - I tried to steer these guys away from this "adventure". Buying a P180 is probably the last airplane I would consider, but they seem enamored by it and think they have found the deal of the century. My guess is it will end up costing 2K/hr, and then one of these days they'll end up stuck somewhere AOG with no parts or support - not something I would want any part of. We'll see how it turns out and hope we are all wrong.

Oh and then there is the pilot...

Mike! How are you buddy? We need to catch up, or better yet, meet again...


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 19:38 
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Just had one of them things pick up what looked to be a charter here in Page AZ a few days ago.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 20:49 
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Running for less than 1k per hour is completely feasible.

Like all turbines, it depends on if you are ‘lucky’ during ownership but if gear overhaul has been done (and you don’t have to do on 91 anyway, glass is good and it has t been beat up, they seem as reliable as any other pt6 turbine and inspection interval very reasonable.

I have dug into them a bunch and am thinking about selling mitts and getting one. As with all interesting planes, it took a while to confirm that the poh is actually accurate. Some pilot reports I got were nuts - like it won’t go 1000miles. Completely false. Appears to be a 360ish knot plane going high and far (1350ish) and 395kt plane going 1100ish miles down low. Basically same range as solitaire which works well for me.

I don’t understand why they were not more popular. Cabin is so nice. Cj2 a little faster but on a good bit more fuel and a radically smaller cabin.

People who buy airplanes are very sheeplike. Rarely do the well engineered ‘odd ball’ planes become popular.

Safety record on Piaggio really good too. The current state of the company doesn’t seem to have hurt values much and parts seem to be available. It’s no more orphaned than a myriad of other old jets and it is actually technically still in production which you can’t say for something like a Premier.

I hope I get one just so I can tool around at 400kts and laugh at all the people going slower in tiny jet cabins burning more fuel :-)

Some cool panel options now exist for old ones too.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 21:04 
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Username Protected wrote:

I don’t understand why they were not more popular.


Parts and support. Many articles on the subject. Just google Avantair.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 21:32 
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Username Protected wrote:

I don’t understand why they were not more popular.


Parts and support. Many articles on the subject. Just google Avantair.


I don't think parts' availability was Avantair's problem. The issue was their checks kept on bouncing and nobody would front them parts on credit.

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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 21:43 
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Yes. That too. There are a few reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread.
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2019, 22:14 
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FWIW and just another couple of datapoints - I read somewhere the other day that the Italian government just injected significant money into Piaggio. While that *might* be good news the question would be if all future emphasis is going to be on the defense side. The other may have come up here before. Piaggio and RUAG developed a retro fit gear kit like the one on the EVO for unknown cost but it seemed *reasonable* when I heard it. Raised the gear to 15, 000 hours/15 years IIRC.


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