23 Apr 2024, 02:54 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 09 Jul 2021, 23:28 |
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Joined: 02/26/21 Posts: 27 Post Likes: +7
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Thanks Daniel this is great information!
Is it the "norm" for P180 operators to always fly max cruise power vs recommended cruise power?
Looking over that table, it is amazing that this aircraft didn't sell like hot cakes? The C525 and Phenom 100 are similar in speed but at a higher fuel flow, but the cabin is significantly smaller. Older legacy citations, as much as I like the thread on the C501SP, don't even come close.
If only Piaggio could sell the Evo for less money.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 10 Jul 2021, 07:15 |
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Joined: 02/26/21 Posts: 27 Post Likes: +7
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Embraer is not American and they seem to do well with their Phenom series (to stay close to the P180). And in Europe Avantair issues didn’t really reach the general public and being Italian they should have sold better over there.
Let’s hope they can put a Garmin 1000/3000 nxi suite in the EVO-2 and push marketing more towards “fly different, fly green”. Jet like speeds for x% less fuel (read CO2).
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 10 Jul 2021, 08:24 |
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Joined: 01/21/14 Posts: 5159 Post Likes: +3696 Company: FAA Flight Check Location: Oklahoma City, OK (KOKC)
Aircraft: King Air 300F/C90GTx
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Username Protected wrote: it is amazing that this aircraft didn't sell like hot cakes? 1. Not an American aircraft company 2. Avantair fiasco. Folks at Avantair did everything wrong, including hiring incompetent & inexperienced pilots, not to mention faulty maintenance and marketing In addition to other rumors, it all contributed to bad press so that potential customers stayed away. IMO, BWDIK? Hopefully it will come back to a new successful start with the EVO. https://www.flightglobal.com/aerospace/piaggio-sale-enters-final-straight-as-talks-with-preferred-bidder-get-under-way/144507.article Unless you were involved in the hiring process, and have first hand knowledge, that seems a little harsh of an indictment against the pilot group.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 10 Jul 2021, 08:48 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6359 Post Likes: +5542 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Richard - I went over the challenges in a much earlier post. But in addition to what has been mentioned, there were three other main factors:
1. PRICE. The Avanti was priced as a jet. And in that bracket, when you turn up to a meeting in a "cute prop plane" when everyone else is in a jet, the optics didn't favor. Appearances matter.
2. WRONG FOCUS. Piaggio marketed it to flight departments and as a corporate jet alternative/ambulance, when they should have been marketing it to the owner/operator all along. That is now righting itself in the used market.
3. CONSERVATIVE BUYERS. It was just a little too strange. Aircraft buyers are very conservative. To the point that if you today made a VLJ with the engines under the wings and not on the tail, I think you'd struggle, too. They want them to look like the "standard".
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 10 Jul 2021, 08:57 |
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Joined: 07/10/10 Posts: 940 Post Likes: +622 Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: Conquest
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Username Protected wrote: The Avanti was priced as a jet. And in that bracket, when you turn up to a meeting in a "cute prop plane" when everyone else is in a jet, the optics didn't favor. Appearances matter. I agree, appearances matter, but I don't think this was too much a factor in the Avanti's demise. No, it's not a jet, but I think it looks pretty cool. I'd love to pull up next to an M2 in an Avanti. If it was built by Textron we wouldn't be having this conversation.
_________________ ----Still emotionally attached to my Baron----
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 10 Jul 2021, 09:23 |
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Joined: 06/06/12 Posts: 2290 Post Likes: +2114 Company: FlightRepublic Location: Bee Cave, TX
Aircraft: DA40, C182
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Username Protected wrote: I agree, appearances matter, but I don't think this was too much a factor in the Avanti's demise. No, it's not a jet, but I think it looks pretty cool. I'd love to pull up next to an M2 in an Avanti.
If it was built by Textron we wouldn't be having this conversation. Didn’t “Textron” (Beech) build the similarly configured Starship? I don’t remember that being a sales success either (and I think it’s one of the coolest looking planes ever built).
_________________ Antoni Deighton contactlink.to/antoni.deighton
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 10 Jul 2021, 10:23 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8452 Post Likes: +8428 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: The Avanti was priced as a jet. And in that bracket, when you turn up to a meeting in a "cute prop plane" when everyone else is in a jet, the optics didn't favor. Appearances matter. I agree, appearances matter, but I don't think this was too much a factor in the Avanti's demise. No, it's not a jet, but I think it looks pretty cool. I'd love to pull up next to an M2 in an Avanti. If it was built by Textron we wouldn't be having this conversation.
It's a strange looking airplane. Perhaps exotic would be a kinder description but it does look weird in comparison to most airplanes. On the other hand it's strangeness is a significant reason it is as fast as it is. And it's a weird airplane in that it operates at jet altitudes, going jet speeds but has props. I think all that bends some minds. When I think about the plane I am usually envisioning the interior which is beautiful and comfortable. After owning one for nearly a year I'm still surprised by how odd it looks from the outside.
Then, it's Italian and I think there is a bias against Italian made products in terms of reliability. Italian cars are beautiful and fast but I think the general perception is they are in the shop a lot. Not practical for every day use. The Piaggio is certainly practical for every day use.
These are things I think that are hard to get past in a conservative business market. If you showed executives the numbers and then blind folded them until in their seats for a test flight, a lot more EVO's would get sold.
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 10 Jul 2021, 12:30 |
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Joined: 01/21/14 Posts: 5159 Post Likes: +3696 Company: FAA Flight Check Location: Oklahoma City, OK (KOKC)
Aircraft: King Air 300F/C90GTx
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Tony - The 'uniqueness' of the exterior is what draws me to it and I'm pretty conservative Then there is the PL21 cockpit and the rest of the interior and I love it. Always have. Is still my work iPad's background!
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 10 Jul 2021, 20:23 |
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Joined: 10/12/20 Posts: 184 Post Likes: +37
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They also need all the new checkbox items if they want drive sales and compete at the new sales price they target...
Fadec, envelope protection, autothrottles etc.
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 10 Jul 2021, 21:34 |
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Joined: 12/30/15 Posts: 1703 Post Likes: +1728 Location: Charlotte
Aircraft: Avanti-Citabria
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Reporting back on Ice Vanes. From book: A torque drop occurs when the ice vane and bypass doors are extended. If ITT is not maxed then throttles can be pushed forward to increase torque. As much as I love this Avanti I would be hard pressed to buy one brand spankN new for 8 mil over a Phenom 300. Cabin likely favors Avanti but range and speed favor Phenom. 50k savings on fuel a year with Catfish would not move the needle….for me. Wife loves this airplane Avanti almost has envelope protection…I.E…benign stall characteristics. If it had autothrottles I might get bored, forge T I was flying and botch the landing. Did I mention wife LOVES this airplane
_________________ I wanna go phastR.....and slowR
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Post subject: Re: The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. Posted: 11 Jul 2021, 06:01 |
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Joined: 12/17/13 Posts: 6359 Post Likes: +5542 Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
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Username Protected wrote: If I upgraded beyond Piaggio I want to fly everywhere above fl400. Can’t believe how much weather still lurks in 30s.
Doesn't the Avanti go to FL410?
_________________ Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
Last edited on 11 Jul 2021, 18:24, edited 1 time in total.
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